Transcript | US v Pfc. Manning, Witness Gunners Mate Terrance Webb, Quantico Duty Brig Supervisor
- posted November 30, 2012
UPDATE POST COURT-MARTIAL
United States v. Pfc. Manning was conducted in de facto secrecy. The public was not granted contemporaneous access to court filings or rulings during her trial. In addition to reporting on her trial, I transcribed the proceedings, reconstructed the censored appellate list, and un-redacted any publicly available documentation, in order to foster public comprehension of her unprecedented trial.
As a result of a lawsuit against the military judge and the Military District of Washington brought by the Center for Constitutional Rights, as well as my own FOIA requests and research, an official court record for US v. Pfc. Manning was released seven months after her trial. That record is not complete.
The official trial docket is published HERE and the entire collection of documents is text searchable at usvmanning.org.
*During the pretrial proceedings, court-martial and sentencing of Pfc. Manning, Chelsea requested to be identified as Bradley and addressed using the male pronoun. In a letter embargoed for August 22, 2013 Chelsea proclaimed that she is female and wished to be addressed from that moment forward as Chelsea E. Manning.
See Transcript of US v Pfc. Manning, Article 39(a) Session, 11/30/12
Judge Lind
Alright, do we have any other witnesses for today?
Prosecution (Fein)
Yes, your Honor. United States calls GM1 [Navy Gunners Mate] Webb.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Raise your right hand. Do you swear and affirm that the statements that you are about to make are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I do.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, for the record you are [missed statement]… GM1 Webb what is your full name?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Terrance [missed middle name] Webb, Jr.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, how long have you served in the Navy?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I served in the Navy nine months– or nine years, eleven months.
Prosecution (VonElton)
I just want to ask you for clarifications– in the Navy, GM1– what is that equivalent in grade?
GM1 Terrance Webb
It’s an E-6.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And GM2 is an equivalent of?
GM1 Terrance Webb
An E-5.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, your rank when you were at Quantico was?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Was E-5.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Okay. Thank you. And how much experience do you have in corrections?
GM1 Terrance Webb
In corrections– Quantico was my first– like the first Brig that I ever worked at.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Did you receive any schooling?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes. I went the same correctional program we’ve had all the Marines and all [missed a few words] when they go to– when they go work in Brigs.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, when did you report to Quantico?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I reported to Quantico in July– I believe July 7, 2010.
Prosecution (VonElton)
About how long were you there?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I was there from July 7, 2010 until January 27, 2012.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, what were your duty titles?
GM1 Terrance Webb
While I was working at Quantico Brig, I was a watch supervisor, and then I was a duty brig supervisor.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, I want to go over that a little bit. What is a watch supervisor do?
GM1 Terrance Webb
A watch supervisor is overall in charge of the personnel on the section– they set the watch posts and ensure that and ensure that the personnel in the section are good to go while they are standing their posts.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And what does a duty brig supervisor do?
GM1 Terrance Webb
A duty brig supervisor is overall in charge of the Brig in the absence of the commanding office.
They also– they– they carry out or ensure that the plan of the day is carried out– and they also oversee– they oversee the watch supervisor and make sure that all the posts are being stood up properly.
Prosecution (VonElton)
So, is the DBS maintaining the day to day operations of the Brig?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, how much interactions did you have with prisoners at that point at Quantico Brig as DBS?
GM1 Terrance Webb
As a DBS I had to speak with all the prisoners at least twice a day.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, why would you speak with them?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Just to verify– or to ask them if everything is okay– of they had any issues or any complaint.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, did you conduct skin checks?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I did not. But I conducted counts– well, you now, when we had to do counts, but I did not– I did not personally conduct them– conduct skin checks.
Prosecution (VonElton)
As DBS are you responsible for ensuring skin checks were conducted?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, would you please explain what a skin check is?
GM1 Terrance Webb
What a skin check is– is at night, once all the inmates are asleep the guards that are actually standing post inside special quarters– they go by and they verify that they can see skin from each and every inmate.
So, if they walk by some and the inmate has a blanket over their head– it is their job to wake the inmate up and let them know that they need to remove that blanket from their head, so they can see [missed word].
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, why do you do this?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Because, to ensure that the inmate is still breathing and the inmate is still there.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, how often were these skin checks?
GM1 Terrance Webb
If they were a regular MDI [medium in custody] inmate it was say– every thirty minutes. But if it was a suicide risk it was– actually I am not a hundred per cent sure if it was thirty minutes or fifteen, but I know suicide was every five minutes.
Prosecution (VonElton)
But every prisoner was checked for skin at some point throughout the night– regardless of classification specifically?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Now, I want to talk a little but about 18 January 2011. Do you remember that day?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
What was your duty title that day?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I was the duty brig supervisor for that day, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, were you a part of escorting Pfc. Manning to recreation call?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, what was your role on that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I was duty brig supervisor– I was just overseeing the whole operation.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And who were you overseeing?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Pfc. Manning.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, what guards were there?
GM1 Terrance Webb
It was Lance Corporal Tankersly and Lance Corporal Cline.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Was it about the normal number of guards to move Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And–
GM1 Terrance Webb
I’m sorry– for rec call that was the normal number.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, so– how did you start moving Pfc. Manning that morning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
We arrived at his cell. We advised him that he was going to rec call. We sound– we sound, ‘Stand by for lockdown.’ We opened– we open the cell, and we applied– applied his restraints.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Was that normal procedure?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And was that procedure based on his maximum custody?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And that was the procedure– was that the procedure executed everyday?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Who applied the restraints?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I do not remember, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Do you remember anything unusual happening?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Well once his restraints were applied– Lance Corporal– Lance Corporal Tankersly– after everything was completed, he was outside his cell to face [missed word] and Lance Corporal Tankersly told him to face towards the door to alpha row, and he faced that way, but he did not– he did not respond.
Prosecution (VonElton)
When you say he did not respond, who did not respond?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Pfc. Manning.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Alright. Please continue.
GM1 Terrance Webb
He did not respond– he didn’t respond to the command. So, at that time Lance Corporal Tankersly corrected him.
Prosecution (VonElton)
How many time were the commands given?
GM1 Terrance Webb
The command was given once, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, were any other commands given by any other person?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir. Anytime I give commands, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Did any other guards give a command to Pfc. Manning to face a direction?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
So, only Lance Corporal Tankersly gave the command?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, what happened after the command was given?
GM1 Terrance Webb
There was no response, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, what happened after there was no response?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Lance Corporal Tankersly corrected Pfc. Manning, and told him that anytime he is spoken to by a guard inside– anytime he is spoke to he needs to respond with ‘Aye Aye,’ ‘Yes or No’ or if it is an officer, ‘Sir or Ma’am.’
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, how did Pfc. Manning respond?
GM1 Terrance Webb
He did not respond. I am not exactly sure how he responded at that time.
Prosecution (VonElton)
So, after the correction, what happened next?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Then– I don’t remember at this time– is there a, like, incident report– that I?
Prosecution (VonElton)
Did you proceed to rec call?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, after everything was completed we did proceed to rec call.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, about how many people were at recreation call when you arrived?
GM1 Terrance Webb
When we arrived at recreation call– at recreation call it was myself– myself and Lance Corporal Tankersly, Lance Corporal Cline, and–
Prosecution (VonElton)
So, what happened when you arrived? Where was recreation call that day?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Recreation call was dorm one.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, is that the normal place for it?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yep. That’s the normal place for– for indoor rec call. Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, so what happened after you arrived?
GM1 Terrance Webb
When we arrived, we sounded, ‘Secure lock down.’ We placed– we moved Manning into the middle– into the middle of dorm one. But, prior to removing his restraints, we instructed him not to move.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, how did he respond to that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
At first, he didn’t respond. But, the command was said again and he then he said that he was not moving.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, how did Pfc. Manning appear at this time?
GM1 Terrance Webb
There really didn’t seem to be anything out of the ordinary, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Okay, so what happened next?
GM1 Terrance Webb
We proceeded to remove his restraints. Once we completed removing his restraints, he fell on his buttocks. And, at that time–
Prosecution (VonElton)
Well, why did he fall?
GM1 Terrance Webb
We were not sure, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
What did you say to him?
GM1 Terrance Webb
We– well– well, when he fell on his buttock, we reached out to try to catch him.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And how would you describe his demeanor at that time?
GM1 Terrance Webb
At that time– I really don’t remember exactly– exactly how he looked. I just– he fell on his buttocks and popped up– stood up really quick and kind of went over into one of the– sort of behind the machines.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, what did he do when he was behind the machines?
GM1 Terrance Webb
He was apologizing to myself and Lance Corporal Tankersly.
Prosecution (VonElton)
How did he sound?
GM1 Terrance Webb
He just kept saying, ‘I’m sorry, GM2. I am sorry, Lance Corporal.’
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, what was his volume like?
GM1 Terrance Webb
It wasn’t– it wasn’t loud. It was just kind of like– kind of like as I am speaking to you.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, so what happened next after he ran behind the machine?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I called the security chief to come to dorm one–we grabbed a chair and instructed Manning to sit down.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, who is the security chief?
GM1 Terrance Webb
It’s Gunnery Sergeant Fuller.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, so after Gunnery Sergeant Fuller shows up, what happens next?
GM1 Terrance Webb
He sat– he sat Manning down and spoke with him, and asked him if there was anything he could do to– anything he could do to help him.
He stated that there– there wasn’t anything– there wasn’t anything– or there wasn’t anything that he could think of for us to do to help him, and after that he was asked if he wanted to complete his rec call. He said that he did, so he completed his rec call.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, how long did Pfc. Manning’s recreation call last?
GM1 Terrance Webb
They were normally an hour.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, did it go the full time?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
I want to ask [missed a few words]. Do you remember what happened later?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Later?
Prosecution (VonElton)
Later in that day– after recreation call?
GM1 Terrance Webb
A little bit, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And would you please describe what you remember?
GM1 Terrance Webb
After the rec call– after we had him back into his cell– is that [missed a few words], sir?
Prosecution (VonElton)
[affirmative]
GM1 Terrance Webb
I remember that Chief Warrant Officer Averhart came in to speak with Manning, and I was actually inside the guard shack while they were talking.
I was just there to– incase the– in case the OIC needed– needed anything from me. Normally, I was– I was had to try to keep myself around.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Was it normal for you to be in the guard shack?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, just anytime when– anytime when he is in there– it is something the OIC was in there talking to inmates, I would go in– I would just kind of view the general area in case he had any questions for me. Just to make myself accessible.
Prosecution (VonElton)
That was your normal procedure?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Okay. And so, what happened next?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I remember hearing Pfc. Manning raising his voice– shouting. I looked up and I kind of saw his hands flailing, and at that time Chief Warrant Officer Averhart came in and instructed me– something to the effect of ‘Special move. Suicide.’ And at that time, I called a code blue.
Prosecution (VonElton)
So, when– after the ‘Special move. Suicide’ what did you do next?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I got on my radio and called a code blue, and instructed my SORT [Special Operations Response Team] team suit up.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, by SORT team you mean extraction team?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, what was the status of the extraction team?
GM1 Terrance Webb
You mean after–?
Prosecution (VonElton)
After you– after you– after you suited up?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Oh, they were just on standby. They were actually outside of special quarters standing by–
Prosecution (VonElton)
What is– what is Pfc. Manning doing during this time?
GM1 Terrance Webb
During this time– I was actually– I was outside of special quarters ensuring that my SORT team– you know that the lock was open for them to– to get all their equipment. So, I am not exactly sure what was happening.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Did the SORT team ever go into Pfc. Manning’s cell?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Why not?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Because the SORT team was actually stood down by either Chief Warrant Officer Averhart or Master Sergeant Papakie.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, do you know why?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I– I believe after that he became compliant, so we– well we felt that we did not need to go in to gain compliance.
Prosecution (VonElton)
I want to talk a little bit about the morning routine with Pfc. Manning. After his clothing was taken– after his [missed] was already taken– what time did morning start for Pfc. Manning at the Brig?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Reveille started at zero five, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, what would happen after reveille?
GM1 Terrance Webb
After reveille, we give them time to wake up, and then we sound– we sound morning count.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, what time would count be usually?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That was usually possibly ten minutes after reveille.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, what is count?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Count is– we go through– three times a day to count all the prisoners to ensure that we have all the prisoners inside– inside the facility we know [missed a few words].
Prosecution (VonElton)
Is count always at exactly the same time?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Generally it is, but it all depends on the [missed word] tempo of the facility. So, there are some deviation.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Does count vary a little to make it harder for [missed word]?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, why is that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Just to ensure that there isn’t a pattern formed.
Prosecution (VonElton)
So, would there be a standby for count?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, when would that usually be?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Standby for count was normally sounded approximately five minutes before count.
Prosecution (VonElton)
Okay. And so, we have reveille. We have count. When does Pfc. Manning usually get his gear back?
GM1 Terrance Webb
On– on the light duty days, my section normally they would actually put his clothes in the feed tray to his cell prior to reveille.
Prosecution (VonElton)
So, what time prior to reveille?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I– I’m not exactly sure. I decide– I know– maybe five minutes prior to reveille.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, that was a routine while you were DBS?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, while you were DBS was Pfc. Manning ever required to stand naked at attention or parade rest?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, when Pfc. Manning was given his clothing in the morning, what was he suppose to do with it?
GM1 Terrance Webb
He was suppose to put his clothing on– or, he was suppose to remove his– his suicide smock and apply– put his clothing on.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, when was he suppose to do that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Directly at– as soon as reveille sounded– as soon as reveille sounded.
Prosecution (VonElton)
So, before count?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Prosecution (VonElton)
And, did you ever communicate this to him?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I never had to. I never had any issue with any– him not in his clothing for count.
Prosecution (VonElton)
No, further questions.
Defense (Coombs)
GM1 Webb, I just have a few questions for you, okay?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
Alright. Did you interact with Manning, when you were the DBS?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, I did.
Defense (Coombs)
And, about how often?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Anytime I had duty– at a minimum it was twice a day, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
In your interactions with him, was he always respectful to you?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir. Except for the one incident that we spoke about– other than that he was respectful.
Defense (Coombs)
Was he disrespectful to you on that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay, so even including that incident, he was always respectful to you?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
And he would immediately stand at parade rest when he spoke to you?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
Can you give me an example of maybe your typical conversation with Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I would come by after taking a shift– or anytime I would come in– I would say– I would greet them with the greet of the day, ‘Good morning’ or ‘afternoon.’ I’d say ‘Good morning, detainee Manning. How are you doing today?’
He would tell me he was fine– all the time– you know, he would tell me he was fine. I would ask him if he had any issues or complaints.
He would tell me he had no issue or complaints. Sometime I would ask him, you know, ‘Is– are, you know– are the showers fine? How’s chow?’ You know, ‘Is chow– are you getting enough chow?’– or anything like that.
He would tell me everything is fine. And, [missed word] good to go, ‘Detainee, Manning, carry on.’ And I would go on to the next–
Defense (Coombs)
Next detainee?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, comparing Pfc. Manning’s responses to you with the next detainee’s responses– were they roughly about the same?
GM1 Terrance Webb
They would vary on any given day– but for the most part, yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. From your observation, Pfc. Manning’s behaviors seemed normal?
GM1 Terrance Webb
For the most part– other than what I would hear– anytime, when– I– anything that I physically saw was generally normal.
Defense (Coombs)
Alright, so everything that you saw with your eyes– he looked normal?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, he would engage in light conversation with you when you talked to him?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
You never saw him exhibit any strange behavior when you were the DBS?
GM1 Terrance Webb
When I was inside special quarters, no.
Defense (Coombs)
And, putting aside the 18 January incident– his behavior for the entire time that you were there was pretty much the same while he was at Quantico?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
I’m sorry?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
So, aside from the 18 January incident, you never noticed a decline in his communication with you when you talked to him or [missed a few words]?
GM1 Terrance Webb
With me, no.
Defense (Coombs)
And to your recollection there was rarely ever a detainee on the opposite side of Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
The only exception might be if they were sharing TV call?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct. There’s a– there’s– I know there has been one, but it’s– [missed statement].
Defense (Coombs)
And, because sometimes there was a– you had another detainee next to him– like I said for TV call– they’d be watching television and not necessarily conversing with each other, right?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That’s not correct– but when I– they’d have conversations before. I’ve actually seen reports from another– another detainee requesting not to speak with detainee Manning.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. So, one time you received a request from another detainee not to speak with Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
From your observation when– when you were seeing him on 18 January– it was you and Lance Corporal Tankersly, and Lance Corporal bringing him out for his recreation call?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, Lance Corporal Tankersly escorted Manning out of the cell, once the restraints were placed on him?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
GM1 Terrance Webb
And, told him to face alpha row– [missed a few words]?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, Pfc. Manning complied with that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
What he failed to do was say, ‘Yes’ or ‘Aye Aye, Lance Corporal’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
And, Lance Corporal Tankersly immediately corrected him?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
And, at that point, Lance Corporal Tankersly said, ‘Hey, when you get an instruction, you need to say, ‘Aye Aye, Lance Corporal’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct?
Defense (Coombs)
And from your observation, Pfc. Manning looked back at him– didn’t really say anything and you couldn’t tell if he was confused or not?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, he didn’t immediately reply to him, and then Lance Corporal Tankersly again repeated, ‘Look, when someone gives you a direction, you need to say, ‘Aye Aye’ and–
GM1 Terrance Webb
It was actually that, that was said by me. I instructed him to– that anytime he was spoke to by– by staff inside the facility, he needs to address them with a proper title.
Defense (Coombs)
We’ll get to that in a moment– so, you don’t recall Lance Corporal Tankersly telling him again, ‘Look when,’ when he didn’t get an immediately reply–
GM1 Terrance Webb
I– I– not to my recollection, no. I don’t remember.
Defense (Coombs)
Do you recall where Lance Corporal Tankersly eventually said, ‘Let’s go’– to Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I– I remember, ‘Let’s go’ being said. I don’t remember who exactly said that, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you recall after him saying, ‘Let’s go,’ that is where Pfc. Manning said, ‘No, wait’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, then that is when you went to him and you said to him, ‘Listen Pfc. Manning. When somebody gives you direction and guidance, you need to respond doing it, and then you also need to say their names and ranks’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Is that what you remember now?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, I remember saying that.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay, so at that point when you said that, Pfc. manning replied to you, ‘Yes, GM2 Webb’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
So, then you go down to the recreation room and obviously before you are moving him lock down is commenced i the facility, right?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
So, that means that the entire facility is locked down, and there are no other detainees out of their cells?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, that is because Pfc. Manning was considered MAX and POI and that was the requirements for the status?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Because he was a maximum custody level the requirements were maximum custody.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. So, then you get him to the recreation room, and when you are in there, Pfc. Manning is still in full restraints, correct?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, so when you are holding on to him, it’s because he is in full restraints?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
You don’t want him to fall down?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, at that point your memory is that Lance Corporal Tankersly says, ‘Stop moving’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No. Prior to removing his– prior to removing his restraints he told him not to move.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay, I’m not doing a timing thing, but at some point when he is standing there in full restraints he’s told to stop moving?
GM1 Terrance Webb
He doesn’t– he doesn’t to tell him to stop moving. He tells him, ‘Don’t move.’
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. Alright– so, tells him, ‘Don’t move’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, then Pfc. Manning replies back to him, ‘I’m not moving’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, at that point Lance Corporal Tankersly again, cause he just says, ‘I’m not moving,’ corrects him and says, ‘Look you need to respond with,’ you know, ‘Aye Aye, Lance Corporal’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
[Missed a few words], yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you recall at that point, Lance Corporal Tankersly saying, or somebody else saying, ‘Are we gonna have a problem? Don’t you understand what the directive is?’
GM1 Terrance Webb
I do not. I do not recall that, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
You don’t recall that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I don’t recall it being said. I am not sure.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. So, the restraints are taken from Pfc. Manning an at that point, then he falls back on his buttocks, correct?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, I know from what we talked about– you reached out and tried to grab him?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, so did Lance Corporal Tankersly?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
But neither one of you could get to him quickly enough, to avoid him falling down?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
And, when you said he fell down on his buttock– if I am standing here and I decided to fall down– that– I can first bend my knees in order to kind of brace the fall– is that what Pfc. Manning did?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
So he fell down?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
So, there wasn’t other– from your observation then– did it look like he passed out?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
What did it– did it look like he just lost control of his legs perhaps?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Well, when he fell down– his– his– he fell on his legs [missed word] of bent at the waist to a seated position?
Defense (Coombs)
Okay, so– so not bending the knees but bending at the waist?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay So, when he falls down– and when he falls down and you don’t get to him, then from your memory, does he– does he say anything at that point?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Not at that point, no.
Defense (Coombs)
You don’t recall him saying something like, ‘No wait’ or ‘Stop [missed word]’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I don’t recall that– just– from my memory , I remembered him immediately jumping right back up and then running to the– running behind the machines.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. So, he get’s behind one of the machines and you said he– I think you told me he covered his face at that point?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, and he started to make a sound?
GM1 Terrance Webb
He was– he was apologizing to myself and Lance Corporal Tankersly.
Defense (Coombs)
And, I know– and you testified that he said that– did he make any sounds, though, at that point?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That– he was just saying that he’d [missed a few words]– like, that I– like, his [missed a few words] sounds coming out. I don’t know what he was saying. It was kind of like he was mumbling something.
Defense (Coombs)
And, can you– can you mimic what you recall him doing when he made those sounds?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Well, once he, you know– he was apologizing and then he had his hands over his face and then he just kind of like– like his lips were moving like he was mumbling something. i don’t know– I am not sure what he was saying.
Defense (Coombs)
Alright– so you– you– witness put his hands over his face. Do you recall him making any sounds?
GM1 Terrance Webb
It was just– just mumbling.
Defense (Coombs)
It was mumbling, so you couldn’t make out–
GM1 Terrance Webb
I couldn’t make out what was being said.
Defense (Coombs)
And what did the mumbling sound like?
GM1 Terrance Webb
It sounded to me like– possibly whimpering.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. Did you see any tears on Pfc. Manning’s face?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
And you said that he immediately apologized to you and to Lance Corporal?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
And at that point my understanding Gunnery Sergeant Fuller came in to the room? Is that correct?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No. I–
Defense (Coombs)
At some point?
GM1 Terrance Webb
At some point he came in, yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And that was because of what happened?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Exactly.
Defense (Coombs)
And, so Lance Corporal Cline — I think– then instructed Pfc. Manning to take a seat in a chair?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And then Gunnery Sergeant Fuller comes up and he asks Pfc. Manning what happened?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, Pfc. Manning tells him that he felt like he was being treated differently on this day?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
And he said he felt like the guards were anxious and that making him anxious?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, he didn’t understand why the guards were anxious?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, afterwards, you– was it you or was it Gunnery Sergeant Fuller decided to replace Tankersly and Cline?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I believe it was my call to– to replace Lance Corporal Tankersly and Lance Corporal Cline.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay, so. You made the call to replace Lance Corporal Tankersly and Cline with two other guards?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And that I believe was because you believe that would diffuse the situation in your mind?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
Because whatever the situation was– it seemed to be coming between Pfc. Manning and Tankersly and Cline– as opposed to Pfc. Manning and you, sir?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
Alright, so then Pfc. Manning wants to– and the new guards replaced actually while he is still at rec call, correct?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And so, then while you are at rec call, he’s just doing his rec call as normal?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
No other issues?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No.
Defense (Coombs)
And, then when the rec call is done, you put the restraints back on him?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you escort– and before I guess you move him from the rec area, you lock down the facility again?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
And then you move him back to his cell?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And then you remove the restraints?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, I imagine that whole process there, for you, would be several guidances given to Pfc. Manning or some other– one of the other guards would give him like, ‘Turn this way. Face this way’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, was he replying as he is suppose to?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
So, you had no other issues getting him back into his cell?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No.
Defense (Coombs)
And then as the DBS, was it normal for you to be in the observation booth? Is that where you normally stay?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I had my office– that was closer to [missed two words].
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. So, that would be a place where you would just come as doing whatever [missed a word] as the DBS?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
So, later that day then– Chief Averhart comes to see Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
Do you recall how much longer after the rec call, that this was?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I’m not sure. Normally, if I was in my office, I would have seen Chief Averhart– Chief Warrant Officer Averhart going to special quarters, I would fall behind him– just to, you know, place myself inside– inside special quarters to remain– you know, to be accessible.
I am not sure what time frame– or how much longer after that it was.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay, so from today– I know it’s been a long time. But, today– your memory you can’t really place that if it was a half hour later– an hour later– two hours later?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. But there– there came a time where Chief Averhart came in to speak to Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you weren’t there present for the conversation?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No.
Defense (Coombs)
You were instead within the observation booth?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you would hear things probably if the voice level was high enough?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
But it wasn’t like you and I talking right now– where you can hear it– word for word what was said? So, you don’t know what Chief Averhart said to Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you don’t know what Pfc. Manning said back to Chief Averhart?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That’s correct.
Defense (Coombs)
But, there came a time when a voice was raised, and that caused you to– kind of I guess divert your attention to what was going on outside of the booth?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
And, when you looked up you saw Pfc. Manning– you said his arms were flailing– flailing around I believe?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
And, was he striking himself at that point?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I am not sure if he was striking himself. His hands were up kind of by his face– kind of like this. I, you know,– I’m not sure exactly what he was doing. I just kind of looked up, and I saw what he was doing and at that time Chief Warrant Officer Averhart walked into– walked into special quarters.
Defense (Coombs)
We’ll get to that, so– I need to describe what you just did. So, you put your hand up next to your head. From what you saw– apparently you were going hands back and forth basically from his shoulder to the front of your face?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Well, I am not exactly sure what– what he was doing with his hands just–
Defense (Coombs)
How about from just what you recall though– when you looked up what do you recall that you–
GM1 Terrance Webb
I just remember his hands around his head, you know– I don’t know if they were going back and forth or side to side, you know– I am not exactly sure the motions– just his hands were moving around his head.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay, so his hands roughly up at his head level?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Alright. So, then at that point Chief Averhart comes into the observation room?
GM1 Terrance Webb
[Missed, but affirmative.]
Defense (Coombs)
Okay, and he says, ‘Special move. Suicide risk’ or ‘SR’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Something to that effect, yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, so that told you that obviously Pfc. Manning was going to move– the ‘special move’ part– was that the ‘code blue’ part?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No. Inside the unit– we do special moves all the time– just his actions cause me to call the code blue.
Defense (Coombs)
Now, did you call the code blue–
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
— or did Chief Averhart say, ‘Code blue’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
He didn’t say code red, or code black or code blue?
Defense (Coombs)
And, why did you call code blue?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Because of his actions.
Defense (Coombs)
Whose actions?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Just speaking– when he was speaking with the OIC– the raised voice and the when Chief Warrant Officer Averhart came in– in– in my mind that lead me to believe that something was definitely out of the ordinary and I needed to have a SORT team on standby.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay, so when you called– and that’s your memory that you are the one who called the code blue. And, you called the code blue. And, how do you do that? Is that like over the mic, ‘Code blue’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
It’s over the– it’s over the two way radios that we have.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay, so you say, ‘Code blue.’ And, was Chief Averhart present when you called the code blue?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, he didn’t stand you down, right immediately at that point?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No.
Defense (Coombs)
So, obviously then he must of concurred with your code blue?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
And, when you called code blue– what does that do? What domino effect does that..?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Once I called the code blue– master patrol they call over the intercom system– they sound code blue over the intercom system– and let them know– the staff know what is going on at that time– the SORT team or the extra guards that I have on my– on my shift that were– they are told before the shift who is on the SORT team.
They know to go to the– to the locker and standby for me to unlock the door– standby for me to get it open. So, they suit up in the SORT team theater.
Defense (Coombs)
Alright, so you are in the observation room. You call the code blue. And then you go to– what room? To the locker?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Well, once I sound the code blue– it’s a– there’s another person in security– I forget which– who it was– but they actually– they– I am trying to remember– they had– they basically– it’s like a contraband control. They have– they have the key to the SORT locker. So, once I call that, they go to the locker, and then I go out to the– I go out to where the SORT team is suited up to ensure that– that everybody– everybody is actually getting suited up.
Defense (Coombs)
And, where is this locker at?
GM1 Terrance Webb
It’s on the– it’s on the outer– it’s on the outside of– outside of the [missed word, sounds like ‘silent court’].
Defense (Coombs)
Okay, so the [missed word, sounds like ‘silent court’]– that’s the door that– the hard metal door?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, there is a– there’s a– there’s a gate– right when you walk through the front– through the front hatch for– to go up to the Brig– there’s that gate– it’s two gates– where one closes when you walk in, then the other one– well if you go around the corner prior to either– going through the side [missed word, sounds like ‘silent court’]. Right to that right, then there is a locker room there where all the SORT gear is kept.
Defense (Coombs)
And, help me with– [missed word, sounds like ‘silent court’]– what– what is that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
It’s basically– it’s a– it’s a traffic control gate sort of– I mean it’s to control who enters and exits the Brig– so you don’t just have one door open you walking in and out.
Defense (Coombs)
Alright, so once you walk in– that door opens, you walk in the door closes and then the other door will open once this door is closed?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. So, then you leave in order to get– essentially at the locker– to make sure everybody is doing their job at that point, right?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
And then what is involved– it’s a code blue then that equates to a forced extraction?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Not necessarily sir. They were just suiting up to be on standby.
Defense (Coombs)
No, I’m not saying that that’s what that is– then, everyone is getting suited up to do a forced extraction?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. What’s involved then– how many people are at this locker room area?
GM1 Terrance Webb
There is five people at the locker room.
Defense (Coombs)
And, what do they do at that point?
GM1 Terrance Webb
They’re– everybody is suited up– suited up in their gear.
Defense (Coombs)
And, what kind of gear are they getting into at that point?
GM1 Terrance Webb
They– they have– there’s a helmet with a face shield. There’s a chest– there’s a chest pads. Arm pads. It’s mainly protection gear for people on the SORT team. So, to protect themselves from the inmate if he [missed two words].
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. And, then you said there were five people. Do– do each of the five people have a different job?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes. Each person– each person has– has to do a different job. I am not sure the numbers, but the one person– their jobs is to control the head to ensure that their head, you know– isn’t bashed around anywhere. Another person, their job is to control one arm. Another person the other arm. And, the same to control the legs.
And, then their is two people that actually– they hold the restraints. So, everybody that goes on the SORT team they have a specific job to do.
Defense (Coombs)
My understanding from our conversations at that point– when everyone gets suited up, and they are ready to do their job– and you get [missed word] up, and you break out the video camera and you go from each person– and you have that person indicate what their job is and what they are going to do?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, so that is what you did in this case?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I–
Defense (Coombs)
Yeah– you suited up, right?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, did you ever get to the point were you were doing the camera thing?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I don’t believe [missed word] did, because after– after I saw the SORT team suited up– I was back inside special quarters.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. So, you get the– how much time goes by after the code blue and everyone is suited up and ready to go?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Approximately– approximately five minutes.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. And, then you come in and what happens when you come back?
GM1 Terrance Webb
When I walk back in– we were– I believe we will still trying to get compliance from– from detainee Manning.
Defense (Coombs)
And, compliance meaning, what?
GM1 Terrance Webb
We were– I believe they requested to get his gear from him. I’m not one hundred percent sure what was happening at that time– or [missed two words] time.
Defense (Coombs)
Now, for the cell extraction part of it– had you ever done a cell extraction before?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Well, we’ve done some training for school and also training– Brig training– on out training days we– we still go through and practice forced cell extractions.
Defense (Coombs)
But, in for real– have you ever done a forced cell extraction?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
When detainee Manning– or Pfc. Manning– the type of detainee that you would envision the need to do a cell extraction?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Any– any– any a– any type of detainee that I allowed a cell extraction performed on–
Defense (Coombs)
Based upon what you knew about him? Did you envision him the type of detainee that you would have to do a cell extraction?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I mean that’s not really something that I can answer because at any moment, a detainee demeanor could changed to where you have to perform a forced cell extraction.
Defense (Coombs)
But, from your memory of him, he was always compliant? Correct?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
He was always respectful to you?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, he always, you know– and he was always quiet?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Courteous?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
No [missed word] danger?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Well I was on duty, that is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, so from your observation of him, he would not be the type of person you would normally think, ‘I need to extract that guy.’
GM1 Terrance Webb
I would still say, I can’t make that judgment, because at a moments notice I can– I would have to do a forced cell extraction on any– on any inmate.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. So, then at some point when you come back in– you don’t have to do the cell extraction, right?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That’s correct.
Defense (Coombs)
If you are basically told to stand down?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, at this point then, Pfc. Manning is– is apparently compliant, and you are not going in for the cell extraction?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Now, Pfc. Manning– and was– do you see him stripped down at that point to just his underwear?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I’m not– I’m not so sure. I can’t remember.
Defense (Coombs)
So, you don’t remember seeing him standing, just in his underwear?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I believe that if he did– if his status changed to suicide risk he would have been in his underwear.
Defense (Coombs)
And, I know it’s a long time ago– so, from your memory do you recall ever seeing– standing by and seeing Master Sergeant Papakie and Gunnery Sergeant Blenis talking to Pfc. Manning– just in his underwear?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I’m not– I’m not sure. I don’t remember what he was wearing, but I do remember them talking to him.
Defense (Coombs)
And, do you remember him standing there?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Alright. So– there was also a video camera, do you remember the video camera?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, why was the video camera was there?
GM1 Terrance Webb
The video camera was to– part of the forced– from when we were suited up for the forced cell extraction.
Defense (Coombs)
So, why was the video camera being used at that point?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I do not know.
Defense (Coombs)
From your position, you would agree with me that he was– common understanding that– that it was Quantico and higher that people were paying attention to what was going on with Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
People were paying attention to what was going on inside the facility.
Defense (Coombs)
And, Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
[Missed word], yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you knew this, because of the protests that were happening outside of the gates?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
You knew this because of the phone calls that were coming to the Brig?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, because of all the mail, and the media inquiries that you were getting?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you said that there were numerous phone calls to the Brig especially at night?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you specifically informed me that every time there was a protest you were aware of that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you were aware of that because they put out information that there was a protest happening and what, you know– what gates would be closed– what alternative roads you have to take, right?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Right, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
In fact there was one time where someone called and ordered apparently hundreds of dollars of pizza for the Brig?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That was something that I heard about– it didn’t happen specifically to me.
Defense (Coombs)
But, you heard about that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you were aware of the fact that at least one pizza place that stopped delivering to the Brig after that incident?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, no one thought that was funny, I imagine? [Missed question.]
GM1 Terrance Webb
No.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you were aware that sometimes your superiors would come to the Brig to walk through to check on Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I don’t believe they were there to check on Pfc. Manning– do you mean superiors as in our chain of command?
Defense (Coombs)
Exactly. That they– you know, Col. Oltman walk through just to see what was going on with Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
There was a lot– there were a lot of different time when they arrive– they were superiors or higher ups that did show up at the Brig. I am not exactly sure if they were there for– to see Pfc. Manning per se.
Defense (Coombs)
Well, I mean, they– you were aware of a lot of a lot of VIP people coming through just for the Brig?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes. They’re not there– VIP’s that did come through, they were not there to see Pfc. Manning.
Defense (Coombs)
As far as talk with him or anything, right?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Right. They didn’t– they didn’t have any contact with Pfc. Manning.
Defense (Coombs)
No, but they walked through the Brig and took a look in his cell?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
Thank you, GM1 Webb.
Judge Lind
Redirect?
Prosecution (VonElton)
No, your Honor.
Judge Lind
Alright GM Webb, I have a few questions. When did the guard– when did the guard duty supervisor– is that what it’s called?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Duty brig supervisor.
Judge Lind
Duty brig supervisor, excuse me, yes. From what period of time to what period of time were you that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
[Missed word.] I don’t remember which day I made the duty brig supervisor for the Brig. But I was a– I was the duty brig– so, it’s possibly two months after I– I arrived at the Brig– until probably– until my departure.
Judge Lind
That would be about September of 2010?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
And, so you left?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
So, as the duty brig supervisor did you do the count?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
Did you do the count everyday?
Judge Lind
No, Ma’am.
GM1 Terrance Webb
There were duty brig supervisors for each– each duty section. So, I was the duty brig supervisor for my– for my duty section.
Judge Lind
Did you– did you– I don’t even think you’d remember this– did you– where you the duty brig between the 3rd and 6th of March [2011]?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I do not recollect [missed a few words].
Judge Lind
Do you ever remember a time when Pfc. Manning was standing naked in front of you at a count?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Not for me.
Judge Lind
When did the guard shifts change?
GM1 Terrance Webb
It was– we changed shift at zero eight.
Judge Lind
How many shifts are there?
GM1 Terrance Webb
There is one shift per duty.
Judge Lind
You mean one shift at zero eight to zero– to– when did they stop?
GM1 Terrance Webb
To zero eight the following morning.
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
Oh, to zero eight– so it’s a 24 hour?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes Ma’am.
Judge Lind
During March of 2011 how many guards would be in the observation booth are at night– like right before reveille?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That Ma’am would depend on the status of the– if you have a suicide risk then [missed a few words] some extra guard, so it was always at least two Ma’am.
Judge Lind
What about POI?
GM1 Terrance Webb
On POI– on POI I believe it was only two, Ma’am. On suicide– on suicide risk was the only time we added an extra guard.
Judge Lind
In– Before the 18th of January, had you been involved in taking Pfc. Manning to rec call?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes Ma’am, at– on my shift it was either myself, and my watch supervisor– that took him to every single one of his rec calls.
Judge Lind
In the prior occasions when– well first of all, let me make sure I understand the protocol– so when you are putting your restraints on and– what orders are typically give?
GM1 Terrance Webb
When we apply the restraints?
Judge Lind
Yes.
GM1 Terrance Webb
And, when we remove the restraints, we always instruct the inmate not to move while we are doing so.
Judge Lind
Those are given every time– every time you do that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
And, what is the inmate suppose when you give that order?
GM1 Terrance Webb
You are suppose to respond, ‘Yes,’ or ‘No,’ and the person’s title.
Judge Lind
Is there a difference between responding, ‘Yes,’ or ‘No,’ or ‘Aye’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
Are they suppose to respond, ‘Aye’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
They can either respond ‘Yes,’ or ‘No,’ or ‘Aye,’ Ma’am.
Judge Lind
Now, in your own words how would the– if the detainee is told, ‘Detainee Jones don’t move.’ What exact words are suppose to come out of detainee Jones’ mouth?
GM1 Terrance Webb
They need to say, ‘Aye Aye,’– ‘Aye, GM1’ or ‘Yes, GM1.’
Judge Lind
Are they required to add their name like detainee Jones says, ‘Aye’ or detainee Jones–
GM1 Terrance Webb
[Missed.]
Judge Lind
Was there a protest that you were aware of on or close to the 18th of January of 2011?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I do not remember the date.
Judge Lind
Did you talk at all– before going to rec call did you remember– did you remember did you talk at all to Lance Corporals Tankersly or Cline?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Just inside the– inside the downtime shack–
Judge Lind
Yes.
GM1 Terrance Webb
They were actually– they were escorts throughout the day. So, while we were in there– just informing them that we were going to– going to do detainee Manning rec call.
Defense (Coombs)
They have any reaction to that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
You call it ‘downtime shack’– is that what you said?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Well it’s not actually the downtime shack– it’s just a– it’s like the guard lounge.
Judge Lind
Do you remember– your memory or discussion about protests?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
If I remember your testimony, you said that when you got to the rec call, after the– well, before I get there– when these instructions were given that Corporal Tankersly and Corporal Cline– was there any difference in the tenor of their voice, when what had been vocalized?
GM1 Terrance Webb
When he did not comply, Lance Corporal Tankersly did speak– did speak to detainee Manning sternly.
GM1 Terrance Webb
Which time– I didn’t [missed word] couple of time did he– ?
GM1 Terrance Webb
This is not initially when he– when he first walked in– when he first told him to face alpha row– and he didn’t respond [missed a few words] — but he spoke with him sternly and informed him to say, ‘Aye Aye, Lance Corporal.’
Judge Lind
Okay– so I understand your testimony that he did what the– what Lance Corporal Tankersly wanted him to do– he just didn’t him to respond? Is that– ?
GM1 Terrance Webb
[Missed, but affirmative.]
Judge Lind
Okay. So, he said that sternly at that point. So, what was Pfc. Manning’s reaction at that point?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Initially he didn’t– he didn’t really say anything– he just kind of stared– and, he, like, he just kind of stared and kind of went [missed word].
Judge Lind
And, is that when you corrected him or you said– ?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No. After that– that was– and actually when he– when he faced that way, I believe, Lance Corporal Tankersly said again– and then after that we– I corrected him after we proceeded– after we started to proceed to rec call and detainee Manning [said, ‘No, stop’?].
Judge Lind
And, your correction was– tell me one more time?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I– I instructed that he was a detainee inside of the facility, and anytime he addressed my staff he needed to address them with, ‘Yes/No’– ‘Yes/No’ their rank or ‘Yes/No, sir/ma’am’ or their rank.
Judge Lind
What was his reaction to that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
He responded, ‘Yes, GM2.’
Judge Lind
In the room– after Pfc. Manning fell down and ran behind the machine– how long was he there– you testified his arms were over his face?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No. It was a couple of seconds.
Judge Lind
And, I believe you said– who were– who– Lance Corporal Cline ordered him to–
GM1 Terrance Webb
I– I– We grabbed a chair and I– or I told Lance Corporal Cline to get the chair, I’m assuming.
Judge Lind
Did he comply immediately with that order?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Judge Lind
Did he say, ‘Yes, Lance Corporal,’ or–
GM1 Terrance Webb
[Missed.]
Judge Lind
Well, what was his demeanor while he was sitting in the chair?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I don’t remember that.
Judge Lind
You testified earlier that Chief Averhart went to see Pfc. Manning later after rec call and you don’t remember the amount of time between rec call and when he went to see him.
Do you if remember rec call was in morning or the afternoon– or at night?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yeah. The rec call was– I believe it was late morning, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
Would the visit have been before the zero eight-hundred guard shift changed?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
Okay.
GM1 Terrance Webb
Ma’am, I meant late morning as in possibly maybe ten o’clock or earlier.
Judge Lind
Did you talk to Chief Averhart before he went to see Pfc. Manning? Did you know– did you know before he actually got up and left?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, Ma’am. It wasn’t uncommon– it wasn’t uncommon for Chief Warrant Officer Averhart to go through to speak with all the inmates.
Judge Lind
What was his demeanor when he was walking to go see Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Nothing out of the ordinary, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
Was he angry?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
Did you hear his voice raised?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
Have you seen other inmates– I guess raise their voice or get excited with Chief Averhart?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Not– not with Chief Averhart, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
So, in Brig’s scenarios– how big of a– I’ll use the French word- faux pas is that for a detainee?
GM1 Terrance Webb
It’s extremely– it’s extremely big deal to show disrespect to the commanding officer of the Brig.
Judge Lind
Was Chief Averhart angry about– angry after the disrespect was shown?
GM1 Terrance Webb
When he came in and instructed me for the special move, he didn’t seem angry– it was just– he seemed kind of– he seemed stern when he– when he instructed me to do the special move.
Judge Lind
If someone is disrespectful to the commander of the Brig, does that normally trigger a suicide [missed word]?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Well it’s– it’s never happened before [missed word], so I–
Judge Lind
The disrespect has never happened?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Judge Lind
What typically happens when their are disciplinary problems in the Brig?
GM1 Terrance Webb
All depending on the severity there will be– they would be placed on– placed on administrative segregation pending an investigation status.
They would be– their cell would be moved either to– I believe it’s charlie row or delta row– of they would be moved to special quarters, depending on the severity, Ma’am. So, long as they aren’t on disciplinary before being moved.
Judge Lind
And [missed a few words] be a special move– is that right?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
I think I’m done. Is there any follow up based on that?
Prosecution (VonElton)
Nothing further your Honor.
Defense (Coombs)
Yes, Ma’am.
Defense (Coombs)
GM1 Webb what’s your current position again?
GM1 Terrance Webb
[Missed, but he asked for clarification on the question.]
Defense (Coombs)
What are you doing now?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I work at the Naval Munitions Command in Norfolk, Virginia.
Defense (Coombs)
And, what do you do?
GM1 Terrance Webb
We run the– we run the armory for the — for the [missed a few word] for that [missed word].
Defense (Coombs)
And my understanding from our conversation– this is the first time you worked in corrections?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, since leaving some of the terminology and stuff has left you because you no longer using it?
Defense (Coombs)
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
The idea of responding with an ‘Aye’ or a ‘Yes’, do you recall whether or not an ‘Aye’ would be a response– a correct response for an action that has been ordered, and ‘Yes’ meaning, ‘I understand’? Do you recall that at all?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I don’t, no.
Defense (Coombs)
So, like someone is told to do something, ‘Aye Aye.’ And, if they are asked if they understand, ‘Yes’?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Does that make sense?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, again using your name, like ‘detainee Coombs’– would I use my name in the third person if I am requesting something, like ‘detainee Coombs requests X’? You never heard that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay.
Defense (Coombs)
You were asked a question about whether or not– if you were the DBS you ever saw Pfc. Manning standing naked in front of his cell. You answered, ‘No.’
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
As, the DBS if you were coming in for count, and you looked over and you saw a detainee standing naked what would you do?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I immediately correct the situation. I’d instruct them to get dressed.
Defense (Coombs)
And, if the detainee refused, what happens?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Then I would secure count it would be written– a DR would be written for interfering– for interfering with count– and I would– I would call on the radio to– to have the rest of the– to have some other guards come in also.
Defense (Coombs)
So, you would– so you at least as the DBS would immediately correct the situation. You wouldn’t be a– while you were taking count, you would keep on going?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
If the detainee was naked and you correct them, and said, ‘Hey,’ you know, ‘get in clothes’ and they started to get dressed– would you document that somehow that they were standing naked?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, I would.
Defense (Coombs)
And, why would you do that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
To ensure that if it’s– if it’s a pattern that is forming then to have documentation that, that actually happened.
Defense (Coombs)
And, I would imagine, it would also be important because interfering with the count is a problem, correct?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, also you expect detainees to follow certain requirements immediately. That’s the whole idea of responding with, ‘I understand,’ and rank, correct?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, when detainees are allowed to follow the exact Brig rules that is where control within the Brig might start to slip a little bit?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you don’t let that happen, right?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is right.
Defense (Coombs)
And, that is because you enforce it, as soon as you see something is wrong?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
There was another question on– you said the issue on the rec call happened around ten hundred [missed word]?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I am not sure the exact time, but I do– I remember being a little but later in the morning– or later in the– yeah, later in the morning.
Defense (Coombs)
Alright, so sometime before lunch?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I can’t recall one hundred per cent– exactly when it happened.
Defense (Coombs)
And, I’m not– I’m not really trying to pin you down on like a particular time but just from the best of your memory it was sometime in the late morning? Is that right?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I do know that the incident report– the time of the– of the incident should have been written down there.
Defense (Coombs)
You know how long after the incident you– you filled out the incident report?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That would– that would have been a little bit later in– later in the afternoon.
Defense (Coombs)
Handing the witness what has been marked– appellate exhibit 428. GM1 Webb do you recognize that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes, I do.
Defense (Coombs)
And, what is that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
This is the incident report that I wrote after the– after the incident.
Defense (Coombs)
And, from your memory, how long after the incident did you write up this report?
GM1 Terrance Webb
As, soon as everything calmed down and the Brig was brought back to normal operations, everybody involved went to write their incident reports.
Defense (Coombs)
Do you know if you wrote this incident report before or after Chief Averhart went to see Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
This was after.
Defense (Coombs)
So, this would have been even after that incident?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, do you see the time of your incident report?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, what time is it?
GM1 Terrance Webb
It’s thirteen nineteen [13:19].
Defense (Coombs)
Alright so 13:19 would have been the– obviously that is after Chief Averhart going to see Pfc. Manning? Correct.
GM1 Terrance Webb
The 13:19 would have been the time of the incident.
Defense (Coombs)
No, I’m– and– I want to make sure I understand. I thought what you said was you would have written up this incident report after everything was done?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, you thought that you wrote up this incident report after Chief Averhart went to go see Pfc. Manning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Correct. After– after all of that– after all that happened, yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay, so. The whole incident with the code blue and all that stuff happened before you wrote this?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. So, that– after that definitely she said it happens some time in the morning?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, then obviously whatever time the rec call was– Chief Averhart going to speak to Pfc. Manning must have been shortly thereafter that?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Alright. Retrieving from the witness appellate 428.
Judge Lind
Mr. Coombs, I don’t want to interrupt your flow– just to make sure I understand. This time– the 13:19 is this the time that you wrote the report or is the time the incident happened?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That’s the time the incident happens.
Judge Lind
Okay. Is there a time in here when you wrote the report?
GM1 Terrance Webb
I believe the time is at the bottom. It should be the time [missed a few words].
Defense (Coombs)
Alright. And, then– I’m glad for the clarification. Thank you for that. Handing back the witness appellate exhibit 428. Why don’t we do this– why don’t you take a look at it and– and look at that– what time would you say you filled out this report?
GM1 Terrance Webb
From looking at it– I would say 13:25.
Defense (Coombs)
Is when you actually filled the report out?
GM1 Terrance Webb
That would have been the time that the Corporals saw it.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
GM1 Terrance Webb
Been a long time since I’ve been at the Brig. I believe that this was the time that the report was started– and then this was the time that the report was completed.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. So, the report was started. And, you say this was the time– you are pointing to 13:19?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, the time the report was completed 13:25?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, okay, and so. That would have been the time the report– what about the time of the incident– is that captured anywhere in the report?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes. I am honestly not sure, because I also see down here that I signed the report at 15:35 on that date. So, but I– it is been a long time since I have seen the incident report or done anything inside a Brig, sir.
Defense (Coombs)
No, I understand. Just look at it for a moment, and then I know it’s a little unnerving to be on the stand, but just look at it for a moment– and if you can say from this if you know the time that you think you would have filled out this report. If it is still 15–
GM1 Terrance Webb
I believe that the report would have been– would have been filled out at 15:35, since that is the date and timed that I signed it. I signed after– after I filled out the report. And, then the 13:19 would have been when the– the time that the incident occurred.
Defense (Coombs)
Is that– that is what you think looking at the report?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. Alright incident being the time that this happened in the rec area?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
So, from 13:19 to– at the latest 15:35– that is were everything would have had to happen between the rec and Chief Averhart– code blue and all that stuff? Because you– Do you recall filling this out after all that was done?
GM1 Terrance Webb
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. Retrieving appellate exhibit 428 from the witness. Ma’am that is all the questions I have.
Judge Lind
And, nothing from the Government?
Prosecution (VonElton)
No, Ma’am.
Judge Lind
Alright. GM1 Webb you are permanently excused physically would ask if you would leave a cell phone number with a Government representative, so we can reach you if we need to talk to you for any further information in these proceedings. Please don’t discuss your testimony or knowledge of the case with anyone other than the lawyers or the accused [missed a few words].
GM1 Terrance Webb
Okay.