Transcript | US v Pfc. Manning, Article 39(a) Session, 11/30/12

posted November 30, 2012

UPDATE POST COURT-MARTIAL

United States v. Pfc. Manning was conducted in de facto secrecy. The public was not granted contemporaneous access to court filings or rulings during her trial. In addition to reporting on her trial, I transcribed the proceedings, reconstructed the censored appellate list, and un-redacted any publicly available documentation, in order to foster public comprehension of her unprecedented trial.

As a result of a lawsuit against the military judge and the Military District of Washington brought by the Center for Constitutional Rights, as well as my own FOIA requests and research, an official court record for US v. Pfc. Manning was released seven months after her trial. That record is not complete.

The official trial docket is published HERE and the entire collection of documents is text searchable at usvmanning.org.

*During the pretrial proceedings, court-martial and sentencing of Pfc. Manning, Chelsea requested to be identified as Bradley and addressed using the male pronoun. In a letter embargoed for August 22, 2013 Chelsea proclaimed that she is female and wished to be addressed from that moment forward as Chelsea E. Manning.

This transcript was taken at the Article 39(a) session of United Stated v. Pfc. Manning at Fort Meade, Maryland on November 30, 2012.

Judge: Army Col. Denise Lind
Prosecution: Major Ashden Fein, Captain Joe Morrow, Captain Angel Overgaard, Captain Hunter Whyte, Captain Alexander Von Elton
Defense: Mr. David Coombs, Captain Joshua Tooman, Major Thomas Hurley

Pfc. Manning

Okay. And then the last part of that. That was when you had the confidential communications– well, when you have your communications with defense counsel you would go to the other office.

What about telephone calls that were recorded or from your cell, how did that work?

Pfc. Manning

Your Honor, for purpose, you could probably can see that right now, the form.

There are no, at least here, forms before 19 August.

[to witness]

I did– I did not have– it was getting cold in there. And, I did not have– although, most of the– most of the detainees at that facility from what I understand, had been– they were issued sweats.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, during those discussions you were never– you never reached out to them and say, ‘Listen, can y’all help with whatever it takes to get me off of this status?’

Pfc. Manning

I did do that, sir, yes.

Prosecution (Fein)

You did?

Pfc. Manning

I did do that, sir. Within– I don’t recall how early it was, but, you know, I did talk to Captain Casamatta frequently about it, because he was very concerned about the fact that I was on– on a restrictive status.

–I remember– and I don’t know who the DBS was at the time, but they– they can’t force me to sign the document.

They started– I mean they were– they were– I mean, the way I was perceiving it was that it was an order.

‘Here is a voluntary statement. Sign this.’

So, they– so, Sergeant Garnet [sp.] gave me this, said, ‘Fill this out.’

I had refused to sign it, and it was uncomfortable– there was some problems with that.

And, that is what I was more familiar with, because these didn’t have a lot of that– those boxes in it and et cetera. I wasn’t sure what the legal status of these documents.

Prosecution (Fein)

But, that started in December, correct? Before December you were signing them?

Pfc. Manning

Well we have– we have the records of these [missed word]. There were instances were– were I– before this– were I would fill out a sworn statement or a voluntary statement, not knowing it was a sworn, not knowing that it could be used as a sworn statement.

I don’t know. Again, I don’t know the legal status of these documents. I still don’t, and, you know– I filled them out before hand with no issue, because, you know, my recreation call would be secured, you know– because I didn’t want to finish my recreation call.

I mean, we are talking about November October timeframe of 2010, but whenever they started to not be able to fill that in, and tell me to that I needed to fill these out, I got uncomfortable, sir.

And, so that is whenever these crossing out and these awkward moments started happening, sir. It was around the December timeframe.

Prosecution (Fein)

Thank you. Your Honor, I am retrieving from the [witness?] what has been marked as appellate exhibit 426 Charlie.

Yes, sir. And, when ‘Stand by for count,’ would be announced, sir.

The wording of the statement, and I can’t see, because I don’t have glasses on. So, I can’t see who is in the observation booth.

That was how– that was how– that was what I did. I was like– I was like, ‘Can you rephrase that,’ I mean, ‘Is that– is that what you want me to do? Do you want me to set the blanket down?’

And, there was a moment where, I would [missed word] that was, ‘Yes,’ you know. I did– I did seek clarification. I remember that.

Prosecution (Fein)

So, you specifically asked them, ‘Do you mean you want me to put the blanket down?’

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Yes, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

So you didn’t say, ‘What do you want me to do?’ It was, ‘You want me to put–‘

Pfc. Manning

Well, I mean yeah. I have to– I have to word things from sort of a third person, because it’s a– it’s a Brig, sir.

So, I would have to word– word it as, ‘Detainee Manning requests clarification on the order–‘ or something like that. Something that I had to.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay. But so, you would then say, ‘Detainee requests clarification on that order?’

Pfc. Manning

Yeah. But I don’t know– I don’t know if that is exactly the wording I said. I was groggy. I mean– it was 05 in the morning, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Okay, sir. Ah, excuse me [for calling him ‘sir’].

You were also ordered, the same time that you were in that– that other CHU. You were ordered not to access a computer?

Pfc. Manning

Pfc. Manning

Just to make sure that everybody that knew– because my– my concern was that– was that nobody– because if I’m– if– if I’m going 72, you know, 96 hours– 72 or 96 hours without updating anybody, I mean I was worried that somebody might think that I might have passed away– I might have got killed or injured or something like that, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

Now, to bring you back to the Brig, and– and really to focus on visitation and visitors. You– you were allowed to have visitors, while you were at Quantico?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, I was.

Prosecution (Fein)

And you chose who can and cannot visit you?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. Well, to an extent. I did– I didn’t– I didn’t know– I didn’t always know if somebody was coming.

Pfc. Manning

So, if I wasted to change, you know, if I
wanted to– it was more for like refusal of eating or things like that– which
I never– I never– I never to my knowledge put that as a sworn statement that
I am refusing chow or anything like that, but that’s an example of one where it
would be use.

Or recreation call was another one, where
they– where if you flat out refuse recreation call, then they would ask you
to.– initially they would ask me to fill it out, and I did.

But, if I was not feeling well or if I just
didn’t feel like going outside or doing recreation call, then I would fill it
out without a problem.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so once you received advice of
counsel, not to fill out these forms, when it really wasn’t voluntary on your
part.

Pfc. Manning

Right.

There was a moment– I don’t recall when, it
was probably towards the December timeframe, whenever they started– they went
to these voluntary statements routinely and they– they kept on putting them in
front of me for times, whenever I wasn’t getting– cause there were days in
which they– I would not get rec call, and you know I would just miss it.

And, that happened before, you know in– I
don’t recall what day it was, and then, I mean, I would mention it, and then it
would be– I would get comp– I think I would get comp time– like if I had a
sunshine call one day, then I would– if I missed a sunshine call one day, then
I’d get a recreation or I’d get a sunshine call with thirty or forty minutes
the next day– because it’s sort of comp– cause it’s sort of comp time for
missing that.

And, that’s early on, but there was a certain
moment, where they started giving me these sworn– these voluntary statements,
and I don’t know.

But, it has a swearing word verbiage at the bottom,
that I wasn’t sure what the status of this document was. And, I was getting increasingly
concerned about having them– having them presented pretty easily, and what
they for.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. So, once I gave you that advice, did you ever have an exchange with
Chief Barnes, about whether or not you would be in trouble if you crossed out
or refused to fill out these forms?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, sir. There was a– she’s said something that it’s against Navy Regulations to
cross out and initial portions that removed the voluntary language– I mean the voluntary language and the–
and, I don’t have the verbiage in front of me, but– I mean to basically cross
out and initial on the language that I was uncomfortable with.

And, the fact that I was not allowed to– she
also said that I was not– that I had to fill these out, that I was not allowed
to just flat out refuse to fill them out, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Pfc. Manning

Yes. We– I mean we looked at it from the vantage point we wanted– I mean I
wanted to get off of POI, and the best way to accomplish that legally was to
exhaust my administrative remedies.

And that was to go through each different step
in the process, and you know, reach that conclusion.

We figured we would get there, you know, about
a few– we would check on– we would check on a couple of these boxes in terms
of exhausting administrative remedies, eventually the POI restriction would be
lifted.

Defense (Coombs)

Alright, so before I advised you on filing a
complaint or doing anything.

Defense (Coombs)

And, I know it’s been a while, but do you
recall kind of what I was telling you was happening from, you know, I was able
to do for you?

Pfc. Manning

You emailed them. You emailed, I remember then
Captain Fein, now Major. Fein
responded back and said that he was going to look into it.

Defense (Coombs)

And, with regards to, I guess, the actions that
were being taken informally. When
did that come to a head, in your mind, where those steps were failing, and
you’d be more formal?

Pfc. Manning

I put in a 5-10 in December, and I have always
vocally said to the staff.

You know, I started asking questions. I got this discrepancy between– I
remember I got this discrepancy between what now Master Sergeant was saying and
what Captain Hocter was saying about why I was on POI status.

So now I know, [missed word] had no idea what
the justification was because medical health provider is saying one thing.

The counselor is saying another thing. And, I remember I put in a 5-10
regarding that to, I believe I directed it to Gunnery Sergeant Blenis– then
Gunnery Sergeant Blenis.

And, I never heard back on it. I never– I don’t know what happened to
that form in mid-December.

And, because we– nothing ever came up with
them, and I talked to you about the fact of [missed a word], and we decided to
go forward or I thought you meant, because I misunderstood, because I put in
another 5-10 to the commander.

I think you, as I found out earlier, that you
sent a memorandum detailing the exact same thing, but through the [missed word]
counsel.

From what you– from what you said, and what
from doing, you know, I think you had to do some paperwork on the 138– the
Article 138 process, and so I had that, but it was just– it was just for
general– it was that, we take a commander– it has to be a commander that
makes a decision and whether or not– and, I– and we have to believe that I
was wronged in them making that decision, but in some way, according to the
statute.

And then– and then we would bring that up to
the next highest– the next high level to the General, all the way up to
General Court Martial Convening Authority, and to the Service Secretary
eventually.

Defense (Coombs)

And, when I was explaining the process to you,
you got denied at every step of the way, all the way up to the Secretary of the
Navy in this instance.

And, I can see that they are uncomfortable with
what they see. And, I didn’t want
to bring that up.

They see that I have two Marines behind me, and
I didn’t want them to– I didn’t want them to have to experience– experience
much more of that. I didn’t want to
bring it up. It’s like the elephant
in the room, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

What were you concerned about from that?

Pfc. Manning

I was also concerned that– that they might end
my– they might secure my visits, and say that I did something wrong, because–
it was understood that you weren’t really suppose to talk about what’s going in
the facility.

I mean I don’t know if that’s the rule or
anything, but it was generally understood that it was probably not a good idea
to talk about the facility like, you know, like any specific details about it
to visitors first, for both security reasons, you know, and that the whole
process of everything, dates and times, and transport issues and things like
that.

I didn’t want to get into the– into the
details of, you know, because I figured that would be a very quick reason to
end those visitations for security reasons, sir.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. Now, why did you chose not to write a lot as far as sending out letters?

Pfc. Manning

Well, I didn’t have– I mean I was able to
visit family or I was able to have family visit. I got that backwards. I couldn’t leave, so I couldn’t visit
them, but.

So, because I was in that area, and most of
my– most of my family are in or were available to visit, I didn’t see as
necessary– I didn’t see it as being necessary to have to write a lot.

And then, I didn’t want to facility to–
because I– in the few time that I did write something, they would scrutinize
every single word, and ask me what I meant, and if I was trying to use code
words or something like that.

So, I was really– I was really uncomfortable
writing anything, because I knew the guards would go through it.

Defense (Coombs)

Another question caused me a little bit of
confusion, because Major Fein asked you about you saying, ‘How do I look? I am
wearing glasses again.’

Pfc. Manning

Defense (Coombs)

Okay, so when somebody copied everything–

Pfc. Manning

It was too– too late at that point.

Defense (Coombs)

–that became public then?

Pfc. Manning

Somebody was going to make– somebody was going
to make it public. And, it
eventually did.

I think there is a verbatim of everything,
including an entire copy of my friends list out there.

And, that was another thing. I didn’t want people that– to get
targeted for being associated with me in any way, shape, or form with me.

Defense (Coombs)

Okay. Now trial counsel also asked you some questions about fundraising. What was your concerns about
fundraising?

Pfc. Manning

I don’t know. I don’t recall exactly what I was
saying, but they’re doing most of the– I’m trying to keep it so they’re doing
most of the talking.

I don’t want– I’m not really involved in
fundraising or anything like that, sir.

I mean I know that– I know that you are
getting paid, that– that is an agreement that we have that you are getting
paid, sir, so.

I didn’t want, you know, I didn’t want any
[missed word] to really– I mean I saw this as being a, you know, a case– from
a case standpoint, I wanted this– I wanted a proper court-martial.

I didn’t want– the court of public opinion was
not where I wanted this, you know, to all take place.

Defense (Coombs)

Did you ever give me, as your counsel, any
guidance on going to the press?

Pfc. Manning

Yes. Limited. I gave you a lot actually. [laughs] I remember that I
didn’t want you to do much. If
you– I remember you– you had Mr. Fitzgibbon contact you or he contacted– I
don’t know how that went.

I tried– I tried to convey the fact that I was
stable, and that I was improving, you know, whenever I got there.

I mean in terms of being– I mean I don’t
know– I don’t know how objective they were– I mean I was– and that was why
that particular question came up because I wasn’t sure if that was what he
actually believed or if that he was just saying that to get press
attention. [missed a few words].

Defense (Coombs)

And, obviously, you would agree that Mr. House
and the other where just there trying to help you really?

Pfc. Manning

They– maybe– I didn’t know. I didn’t know for sure. I didn’t– that is why I limited my
association.

Pfc. Manning

Yes, your Honor. So, they announced, ‘Reveille Reveille
Reveille’ in the housing unit, then ‘Stand by for count.’

And, I don’t recall– I recall being confused
about that– about the rank in particular.

And, then I said– I tried to word the question
something to the effect of, ‘Excuse me, Lance Corporal,’ or ‘I’m not sure what
you are trying to ask.’

That was the gist of what I was trying to
ask. I don’t recall the exact
phrasing.

And, then the phrase– the statement was said
again. And, then I– I think I
asked. I recall asking, ‘Should I
put the blanket– Do you want me to put the blanket down?’ And then there being a, ‘Yes,’ or
something like that. So, I set the
blanket down and went to parade rest, your Honor.

Judge Lind

What happened after that?

Pfc. Manning

I mean, ‘I’m not really doing a whole lot.
There is not a lot going on,’ you know.

We talked. Then, we had some small talk on occasions. We used to talk about current events,
sports, [missed word] theory, but–

Judge Lind

Cause that is what is confusing me slightly too
is you testified yesterday that you were very extroverted person who wants to
be around people–

Pfc. Manning

Yes, I do.

Judge Lind

–then why didn’t you talk when you had the
opportunity to talk to him?

Pfc. Manning

Well, it’s a different– I mean, and I did talk
to him.

I felt that I was talking to him. You know, I
like to talk. I mean, I like to
talk [missed a few words] everything.

I get energy from– from being around people or
group of people, but it was just this sort of one on one conversation, and I
felt that we were– I felt that we were having kind of a decent
conversation.

Sometimes– Sometimes I just didn’t have a
whole lot to talk about or I was just out– out of energy from being bored all
day, and not really having a lot to do.

And, you know, we would talk about things that
were not necessarily that interesting to me. We didn’t have a lot of similar
interests, me and now Master Sergeant Blenis.

We didn’t have a– we had some– we had some
overlaps, in terms of college basketball, and things like that.

But, we didn’t have a lot of similar interests
on certain things, at things on what I could gather.

Judge Lind

When was the first time that you remember– You
testified earlier that you tried to handle this informally in the
beginning.

Did you ever talk to Gunnery Sergeant Blenis or
anybody else at the Brig about, ‘What can I do to make you all think that I am
stable and I’m not–?

Pfc. Manning

Yes, yes. Correct. Correct. I don’t know when I started.

I mean in the very beginning I wanted to convey
the fact that whenever I arrived at Quantico Base Brig in July 2010– I wanted
the staff to know that, you know, that I was fine.

I wanted to get off of the status, and I wanted
to find out how I could do that to [missed a few words].

Any follow up questions based on that?

Pfc. Manning

–Oh. I– there was the second.

Judge Lind

Oh, I’m sorry. Go ahead.

Pfc. Manning

Pfc. Manning

Of course, but I mean, I didn’t really have– I
think friend wise I would call Mr. Clark a friend, so yes, in that sense, Mr.
Clark in particular.

For many of my– for many– for many of the
people that I considered friends did not come with– to visit me, while I was
at Quantico Base Brig, sir.

Prosecution (Fein)

And so what about– and then, were you also
then worried about what the media consultants or the PR experts would think
when they came and visited you and you didn’t talk to them about it?

Pfc. Manning

I don’t really– I mean they– they were– they
were there.

I was more– I was more concerned about
having– having sort of– because I knew that they– no matter what they were
going to talk to whoever about whatever.

I mean they have– they have First Amendment
rights to do that.

So, they can speak to whoever and whatever,
and– but, I wanted them to– I
wanted them to– I wanted to hear from them, and see them personally.

I would say so, yes, from their
standpoint– I mean that’s why I
had– that’s why we arranged– why me and Mr. Coombs arranged for these blog
postings is because I wanted– that was the– we were really trying [to?] hold,
you know, the middle ground, and try to get just the facts–

As many facts as possible, and not, you know,
[missed a few words].

Prosecution (Fein)

So there was information from people who did
visit you being put out to the media that was false about your conditions?

Pfc. Manning

That I believe could be– that was not
necessarily accurate or that was portrayed in a slanted light. I’m a
fact– I am more of a scientific
person. I like things to be more factual, and as objective– I mean as–
There’s gonna be some subjectivity in this. That’s inevitable in the world, you
know.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

When I would interview Pfc. Manning
he’s, you know, very social and very intelligent– you know, [missed a few
works] an authority, but he didn’t seem depressed or aloof– or avoiding eye
contact– a very, very engaged person.

When I would see the Brig staff they
would describe for me a completely different person– flat affect, very withdrawal,
poor eye contact, who declined visitation– rec, other opportunities like
that.

I got the impression that his
presentation varied– and could be dependent upon the person with whom he was
conversing. So, the person I
interviewed did not seem depressed– but, the person that the Brig commander
described would– I would say– seem pretty depressed. So, the presentation could be varied.

Prosecution (Morrow)

And so, difference in presentation to
different individuals– is that concerning from a psychiatric perspective?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

It is. I mean it’s, you know, [missed word] or
not consistent. I don’t know what
the motivation was behind that.

I only met him twice. But, it seemed clear that the
presentation was varied from one person to the next.[Missed a few words], I would
interview him, I wouldn’t be so concerned. But, understandably, I could understand how the Brig commander would be,
if her observations on a day to day basis– not just one hour weekly visit.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, you also stated that ‘due
diligence for self-harm behavior is not unreasonable given his change in
behavior. Necessary reassurance of safety
is difficult to achieve if service member choses not to communicate with
facility staff.’

Can you describe that please or just
what you meant?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Yes. [Missed.] I mean, he normally– his baseline
behavior was very withdrawn– [missed a few words] did participate, you know,
in [missed word] activities or opportunities to– but that week the Brig
commander expressed more concern above that.

I can’t remember specifically what
[missed word]– he might have even received some negative news and she was
concern that– even– even compared to his baseline– he was even more
withdrawn– less talkative– almost no eye contact.

Given his history of attempting
suicide at a time of significant stress– at that time, I wasn’t sure if– if
this current stressor was also going to, you know, cause him stress or
difficulty and lead to suicidal thoughts.

So, the second visit I gave him that
feedback– if I wanted use recreational activities I remember saying ‘April in
northern Virginia, it’s a wonderful time of year. I don’t know why he doesn’t want to go
outside and enjoy the sunshine and just relax,’ and you know, I reassured him
that I talked to the commander and that it is very simple for him to do that.

And, you know, I also recall that the
Brig commander stated to me that she was actually affording him, I believe more
rec than she normally would for detainees– which I think, you know, she
expressed a lot of frustration, because she was I believe trying to provide
[missed a few words] Pfc. Manning.

So, we kind of talked about these
obstacles as just a new thing. He
didn’t have to just stay in his cell, because there are other opportunities
afforded by the– We never got past that barrier– I’m not quite sure what his
motivation was.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Well, what did– did Pfc. Manning say
anything– what did he say, when you presented the–

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

It wasn’t really a response
back. It was more, just ‘Well we
can’t do this, ‘but then it really wasn’t talk about as much in a typical
discussion or you know anything positive or that– that’s good news or I’ll
take advantage of that. It was–
the discussion didn’t continue.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Did he provide an explanation of why
he felt the forms were too onerous?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

No, I didn’t go into it any more than
that. I just– I just wanted him to
know that– you know, I checked on it.

I wanted to make sure that, you know,
things weren’t unreasonable– and that meant reasonable would be relative to a
typical detainee– and make sure that I didn’t find that, you know.

And in fact the contrary, I found the
Brig commander actually very concerned– you know, regarding [missed a few
words] and take advantage of rec call opportunities and I am pretty sure– you
know, she said she would afford him more than the typical detainee.

But, you know, he declined.So, I took that as more– at that
point, I realized though, that this is more than an active choice for whatever
reason– you know, motivation he had.

To me at that point it seemed like
well, he knows he can do that if he wants to, but he choses not to so, I’m not
going to push him or badger him to do that. But, I do remember several times try to
tell him how nice it was outside and you know, it only lasts a month or two and
then it starts getting humid– and, just try to convince him to get some fresh
air. And, I really don’t remember
much more from that interview the last time.

Prosecution (Morrow)

Sir, do you– did you recommend
prevention of injury again?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

You know–

Prosecution (Morrow)

–or did you say that it wasn’t–
well, let me– let me ask you this: You said that– excuse me one second,
sir.

You said, ‘Brig providing reasonable
restrictions which do not cause any mental anguish. Discussed plan with staff.’ What did you mean by that?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

This a recall– but I remember
writing, paper and pencil or taking– if he wished to write– to do that– it’s was very, it’s been a while, I
can’t remember — but I remember asking him the writing– he could do it with
certain restrictions– — if there’s– if they were affording him to read
books, but if I recall– he wanted to make notations in the books in order for
him to be able to– he would like somehow keep track– a way of making notes or
something and somehow that was a conflict with the Brig’s SOPs, and [missed a
few words] and didn’t have [missed a few words] — again, I don’t remember
detail– but I remember there were certain things they were reporting Pfc.
Manning wished to do it a certain way– and the Brig didn’t agree.

At that point, I believe you
testified that you were aware that Pfc. Manning underwear was being taken away
from him at night? If he is a low
risk of self-harm or violence, why would you recommend that continue?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

For that week the behavior changed–
so, when you looked at the difficult behavior that the Brig was observing or,
you know, was noted– the Brig commander said that she had, you know, special
concerns that– for that week– because his behavior just seemed extreme from
what she had observed in the past. So, I think that what [missed a few words] Pfc. Manning. It was just that week.

Judge Lind

So, when the Brig– when CW2 Barnes–
the Brig commander was talking about behavior changes– how did she describe
his behavior before this change?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

Not talkative. Very little interaction with the Brig
staff. Not doing outdoor rec–
things that were afforded.

She also– I remember her comparing
it relative to what she normally sees in the typical Brig detainee. And, how she felt that this was a little
more extreme then she had experienced in the past. The impression–

Judge Lind

Keep– No, Go ahead. Finish answering and then I will ask my
next question.

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

The impression I got was what we saw
was– first of all, what I saw in interviewed Pfc. Manning was someone who did
not seem maladjusted.

He seemed to– His mood seemed
fine. It really struck me– how his
mood– and I understand this is just according to the Brig commander– was such
a stark difference between the two.

It was difficult to figure out his motivation. It was clear– It was clear when– I
would speak with him first and he did not seem depressed.

I would not be worried about him, but
people often can act differently in different situations and while he was with
me, he seemed to be a very low risk. But I wasn’t witness to– which I couldn’t witnesses– was how did
interact when he wasn’t being interviewed– so, because of the stark difference
in the description that the Brig staff would convey to me.

So, I remember I– I kind of
understood why the Brig commander would have some concerns– if– for during
the week she would see a very solemn withdrawn person– I can understand her
concern if when we would interview a the person– or, I’m sorry, ‘the person’–
when we interviewed Pfc. Manning he wouldn’t seem depressed.

And, I didn’t want to go into his
motivation- you know, whether it was just with him or whatnot– only because I
only did see him once per week.

A person could be on that for a
while–depending on, you know, what time of reassurance the detention facility
or Brig will– again whether it’s verbal or behavior or some indication that–
that this person is safe. It’s
usually– a lot of it has to do with his sociability to the person engaging and
just simple conversations.

And, as I remember the concern with Pfc.
Manning wasn’t conversing in a most simple conversation that would in no way would
be part of this case– just simple daily courtesy– that they felt that he
just– he wouldn’t engage that way.

Judge Lind

When you are describing the fact that
Pfc. Manning wouldn’t engage– and, I guess this is where my confusion is lying
a bit– you testified earlier that you were recommending– notwithstanding your
own interviews– continued POI, because of a sudden change in behavior– and, I
guess I am going back to my original question– did the Brig commander describe
what Pfc. Manning was like before his behavior was changed?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

[Missed a few words.] So, his typical
behavior was not conversing, and not doing [missed words]– but that week, I
remember, specifically she said that his eye contact was very poor. It– he would stare at the ground if
someone was speaking to him– he would use very few words in reply. She also reported– she said that it was
just more– more obsessive than what she experienced with him.

Judge Lind

Why did she believe– did she tell
you why she believed that Pfc. Manning would be in danger from the other
inmates?

Lt. Col. Robert Russel

He sat– he sat Manning down and
spoke with him, and asked him if there was anything he could do to– anything
he could do to help him.

Defense (Coombs)

Can you give me an example of maybe
your typical conversation with Pfc. Manning?

GM1 Terrance Webb

I would come by after taking a
shift– or anytime I would come in– I would say– I would greet them with the
greet of the day, ‘Good morning’ or ‘afternoon.’ I’d say ‘Good
morning, detainee Manning. How are
you doing today?’

Judge Lind

ALL RISE

Judge Lind

Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is called to order. Let the record reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed, are again present in Court.

Counsel and I met briefly for an RCM 802 conference, what that is– is as I told you before is where I talk about scheduling and logistics issues in the case. The Government has advised me that they wished not to call anymore witnesses this evening and begin again tomorrow. Defense has concurred. We have also discussed the next session.

Court is in recess.

ALL RISE