Transcript | US v Pfc. Manning, Witness Captain William Hocter, Quantico Brig Forensic Psychiatrist
- posted November 28, 2012
UPDATE POST COURT-MARTIAL
United States v. Pfc. Manning was conducted in de facto secrecy. The public was not granted contemporaneous access to court filings or rulings during her trial. In addition to reporting on her trial, I transcribed the proceedings, reconstructed the censored appellate list, and un-redacted any publicly available documentation, in order to foster public comprehension of her unprecedented trial.
As a result of a lawsuit against the military judge and the Military District of Washington brought by the Center for Constitutional Rights, as well as my own FOIA requests and research, an official court record for US v. Pfc. Manning was released seven months after her trial. That record is not complete.
The official trial docket is published HERE and the entire collection of documents is text searchable at usvmanning.org.
*During the pretrial proceedings, court-martial and sentencing of Pfc. Manning, Chelsea requested to be identified as Bradley and addressed using the male pronoun. In a letter embargoed for August 22, 2013 Chelsea proclaimed that she is female and wished to be addressed from that moment forward as Chelsea E. Manning.
See Transcript of US v Pfc. Manning, Article 39(a), 11/28/12
DEFENSE CALLS CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER. SWORN IN BY THE PROSECUTION.
Defense (Coombs)
Tell Court..?
Captain William Hocter
Staff psychiatrist at Fort Belvoir Community Hospital…senior officer on staff.
Defense (Coombs)
How long?
Captain William Hocter
21 years.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
Yes. Naval Health Clinic at Quantico. Five years– 2006 to 2011.
Defense (Coombs)
On site mental health at Brig?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
[Treat] Pfc. Manning…?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Pfc. Manning first arrived?
Captain William Hocter
Late in afternoon or evening.
Defense (Coombs)
What was involved?
Captain William Hocter
Review computerized mental health record…talk to Captain Richardson in Iraq. Captain Balfer (sp.) flight surgeon. Always review clinical practice.
Defense (Coombs)
Before…in July?
Captain William Hocter
At time I did– first arrived.
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Captain William Hocter
Learned from Captain Richardson– metal implements, nooses… spoken about. Comments from Captain Richardson, ‘could be patient.’
Defense (Coombs)
Change opinion?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
First removed from suicide risk?
Captain William Hocter
4 of August, first removed.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(a)]?
Captain William Hocter
This is a worksheet Brig used at time to make recommendations in regards to psychiatric status.
Defense (Coombs)
You consulted with Col. Malone?
Captain William Hocter
Senior Army forensic psychiatrist at Walter Reed. I thought a good idea because of previous suicide and also help the Brig to feel more comfortable.
Defense (Coombs)
You recommended?
Captain William Hocter
Took Brig a couple of weeks to do so.
Defense (Coombs)
Is it unusual not to follow all recommendations of mental health?
Captain William Hocter
At Quantico they usually did not follow. …at other civilian facilities [he was it would be unusual].
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(b)] Recognize?
Captain William Hocter
Not directly. I wrote to Captain Neill.
Defense (Coombs)
Do you recall?
Captain William Hocter
My assessment was this had to do with security than mental health.
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Captain William Hocter
Comment regarding ‘patience’. We had also been patient too and we had observed him quite a lot. It wasn’t very good use of [missed].
Defense (Coombs)
You had, had caution up to that point?
Captain William Hocter
You wouldn’t watch someone about his being ‘patient’. So, this is longer than we would usually want. This was pretty long, but we felt safer to move him to lower status.
Defense (Coombs)
First week– every day to other day? Stepped down?
Captain William Hocter
In addition to review, psychiatric evaluation [missed]. [Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Did you take into account amount of staff observation?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. I would not only talk to the guards, but they had a log book.
Defense (Coombs)
What was in the log?
Captain William Hocter
I did from time to time– particularly early on.
Defense (Coombs)
Would you speak to guards?
Captain William Hocter
I would talk to Gunnery Sergeant– forgot his last name [NB Blenis].
Defense (Coombs)
Did you recommend afterwards come off of POI?
Captain William Hocter
August 6 to August 26 [2010], recommended he come off.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(c)] August 27, not August 26 [2010]. Why recommend Pfc. manning removal [from POI]?
Captain William Hocter
He had been observed…week or two and that seemed reasonable amount of time. We were patient.
Defense (Coombs)
Why consult with Col. Malone?
Captain William Hocter
Brig very worried, and I wanted to allay their concern.
Defense (Coombs)
What [is the] time to detain on POI?
Captain William Hocter
Actively want to harm themselves. Starting to look [missed] someone. The less you know…the more careful…
Defense (Coombs)
Why did you believe Pfc. Manning [should] not [be] in POI?
Captain William Hocter
Not persistently depressed. Not suicidal. Not being impulsive, he was…[missed].
Defense (Coombs)
Maybe he was contemplating suicide, does that mean he has to be on POI all the time?
Captain William Hocter
People go into psychiatric hospital and come out. It’s a risk assessment.
Defense (Coombs)
No reason people can’t get better?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. I was concerned with his lack of interaction with people and lack of exercise. Good people tend to be more dysphoric when when not interacting with people.
Defense (Coombs)
Was he interacting?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Lack of exercise?
Captain William Hocter
He was losing wight and he is small.
Defense (Coombs)
Ever ask Brig to allow him to exercise in his cell?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Their reaction?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Captain William Hocter
Against regulations.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Increase sunshine call recommendation?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. Part of sunshine call.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(d)] Know who Captai Neill was?
Captain William Hocter
Yes, my commanding officer.
Defense (Coombs)
Know weekly updates to Col. Choike and Col. Oltman?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
She is presenting [to them] your recommendations?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Other than voicing your opinion, ever speak to anyone?
Captain William Hocter
I would have spoken to the officer in charge.
Defense (Coombs)
CW4 Averhart?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
What did they say?
Captain William Hocter
They ‘would take under advisement.’
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
From clinical standpoint, detrimental?
Captain William Hocter
Could be.
Defense (Coombs)
How so?
Captain William Hocter
In this…[patient] became more anxious, irritable. Some [patients] can become suicidal. It did not with Pfc. Manning. Pfc. Manning personality structure tending towards moodiness. Anxious…make it more difficult [to treat].
Defense (Coombs)
MAX POI makes him more anxious?
Captain William Hocter
My purview…I felt was POI…MAX is not a psychiatric status…so, I felt I can’t comment on it.
Defense (Coombs)
The term solitary confinement– there is a Brig definition– what is the psychiatric understanding?
Captain William Hocter
Not allowed to talk to other detainees.
Defense (Coombs)
Did he talk to others?
Captain William Hocter
Not that I am aware of.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Was there ever a detainee held in POI as long as Pfc. Manning?
Captain William Hocter
One Air Force detainee– had a lot of behavior and disciplinary issues.
Defense (Coombs)
I think you were telling me about that detainee was going back and forth to Walter Reed?
Captain William Hocter
That detainee was.
Defense (Coombs)
Pfc. Manning unique treatment?
Captain William Hocter
Yes– level of concern here that was higher that I had seen.
Defense (Coombs)
How long have you worked in corrections?
Captain William Hocter
Part in my fellowship then [explains more, missed]. Guam, Great Lakes, in GTMO in 1995 during Cuban and Haitian boat [crisis?] in 2006– Pelican Bay. Fairly substantial
Defense (Coombs)
Then, of course your five years at Quantico?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Ever seen in your other experience, other detainees held at POI [like Pfc. Manning]?
Captain William Hocter
Never…[missed]. I also did GTMO in 2003…detainee– expect to see anxiety, decreased in appetite.
Defense (Coombs)
Adversarial with staff?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Less compliant?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
See this with Pfc. Manning?
Captain William Hocter
Left in January 2011– and his patience was deteriorating.
Defense (Coombs)
Did he ever…?
Captain William Hocter
He said he wished he could get off of POI. He was understated, but it was clear he would like to have a bit more freedom.
Defense (Coombs)
Side effects?
Captain William Hocter
He did better than expected being watched every five minutes– others wouldn’t handle as well.
Defense (Coombs)
Why did he handle…?
Captain William Hocter
[laughs] I would like to think it was my care. I think he decided he was going to be strong.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Ever voice to Captain Neill?
Captain William Hocter
Yes, I did.
Defense (Coombs)
How frequently?
Captain William Hocter
I spoke to her five or six times. I sent her email and any recommendation.
Defense (Coombs)
My understanding, you were making evaluations and recommendation to…?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. [Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
One in December 2010?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
On 18 January…?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. He was very upset.
Defense (Coombs)
Were you viewing recommendations as being pointers?
Captain William Hocter
I am a senior medical officer, 24 years at the time, never experienced anything like this. My recommendation had no impact.
Defense (Coombs)
Was working at Quantico Brig frustrating?
Captain William Hocter
Couple of things. One, not paying attention to recommendations– Office set up– no computers– normally enter into computer– allow us to put notes– did not have a functioning telephone. So, [missed].
Defense (Coombs)
Now, with regards to working at the Brig, come a time you wanted to be relieved?
Captain William Hocter
It pre-dated Pfc. Manning…it’s a different environment. Things didn’t get better. Took over Walter Reede and took over correct training…
Defense (Coombs)
CW4 Averhart did not trust you?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Didn’t trust your opinion? [CW4 Averhart statement in an email: ‘His evaluations are not consistent and appears to be on both sides of the water to cover his six in the case of …’] ‘To cover your own back’?
Captain William Hocter
Not [missed word].
Defense (Coombs)
Ever told not spending enough time to make adequate evaluation?
Captain William Hocter
No. I spent a lot of time.
Defense (Coombs)
Based upon time you spent, do you believe you had adequate time to make determination?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Captain William Hocter
Because I did a thorough professional evaluation.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(e)] Captain Neill says you didn’t see Pfc. Manning in 26 November 2010?
Captain William Hocter
Recall now.
Defense (Coombs)
See where you respond?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
You see how you said, when you visited?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
‘You would send alternative mental health’?
Captain William Hocter
Yes understand. We were seeing him regularly and weekly reports. My recollection was day after– had more junior crew– and our visit wasn’t reported. So, that got reported.
Defense (Coombs)
Captain Neill– these reports seen at very high level?
Captain William Hocter
That was never specific.– being that there was high level at base– nearly weekly.
Defense (Coombs)
How do you know?
Captain William Hocter
Because, we were asked to make reports.
Defense (Coombs)
How much time did you spend…?
Captain William Hocter
Sometime one hour, also how much he wanted to– in general once a week.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420 (f)] [Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
My level of confidence– his needs not that intensive.
Defense (Coombs)
How long at this point…been able to evaluate?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
That enough time to make proper evaluation?
Captain William Hocter
I would hope.
Defense (Coombs)
Did CW4 Averhart tell you that you were not spending– not enough time?
Captain William Hocter
Don’t recall.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Oltman?
Captain William Hocter
I met him once– but I don’t recall his specific words.
Defense (Coombs)
Know if Captain Neill told CW4 Averhart or Col. Oltman…didn’t trust you?
Captain William Hocter
If they felt that way, they should have got someone else to do the job.
Defense (Coombs)
Aware…didn’t trust because of previous detainee who committed suicide?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed a few questions about Captain Webb’s suicide.]
Captain William Hocter
…We are not infallible with that.
Defense (Coombs)
Did CW4 Averhart ask for second opinion with Col. Malone?
Captain William Hocter
Don’t know.
Defense (Coombs)
If you had know Col. Oltman and CW4 Averhart did not trust you…?
Captain William Hocter
I would have offered to resign. He was being treated differently.
Defense (Coombs)
Did you see how if they didn’t trust you, that would be unfair to Pfc. Manning?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. That is why I got a second opinion.
Defense (Coombs)
Learn about…licking the bars guard?
Captain William Hocter
Either from guard or behavior log.
Defense (Coombs)
Not determination from behavior…?
Captain William Hocter
No, people do all sorts of things while sleepwalking.
Defense (Coombs)
…he was dancing in cell?
Captain William Hocter
Normal. Not unusual.
Defense (Coombs)
Heard…peek a boo?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. Doesn’t concern me… He had his own personality. He was a free spirit.
Defense (Coombs)
Ever tried to escape?
Captain William Hocter
Never heard that.
Defense (Coombs)
Assault guards?
Captain William Hocter
Never heard that.
Defense (Coombs)
Disruptive?
Captain William Hocter
No. Pretty well behaved.
Defense (Coombs)
Did you think toilet paper should be taken away from a mental health perspective?
Captain William Hocter
Maybe.
Defense (Coombs)
Degrading?
Captain William Hocter
Something healthy adults have to do.
Defense (Coombs)
Hand soap taken away?
Captain William Hocter
not dangerous– and he wasn’t dangerous to himself. Maybe for that first week– bit after that…
Defense (Coombs)
Do you believe needed his clothes taken away at night?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Suicide blanket?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Suicide mattress?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Prescription glasses [removed]?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Checked on every five minutes?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
That they were not…?
Captain William Hocter
After you have done rush assessment– more liberty if they are not dangerous.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed date], back on POI after you recommended he be taken off?
Captain William Hocter
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(g)] Prevention of injury assignment…?
Captain William Hocter
Not suicidal. Under a lot of stress.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
He was doing yoga and they he was trying to hurt himself, and it upset him.
Defense (Coombs)
Recall in that time period you recommended…?
Captain William Hocter
I wasn’t able to put my noted into a computer.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(f)] Does that refresh your memory?
Captain William Hocter
This was a different incident than the yoga– there had been a report on FOX News that he had died, and I was worried…[missed].
Defense (Coombs)
Recommended?
Captain William Hocter
Remove his TV so he would not see that.
Defense (Coombs)
Removal of TV…?
Captain William Hocter
He was upset. [When he found out about the news report] he laughed about it and I recommended removal from POI.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
He was upset that he wasn’t getting many visitors– three days late [10th].
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
Because what I perceived would make it…upset– he appeared to be doing better.
Defense (Coombs)
You recommendation based upon slightly depressed and FOX?
Captain William Hocter
I was being cautious– impulsivity and did not know how he would react.
Defense (Coombs)
Once you saw how he reacted– more comfortable and Brig followed your recommendation [for removal from POI]?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
18 January 2011, you were preparing to deploy?
Captain William Hocter
Last day at clinic…go to Afghanistan.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 421(?)] Know Captain Ramondo (sp.)?
Captain William Hocter
Our XO [Executive Officer].
Defense (Coombs)
Why update Captain Neill on the situation?
Captain William Hocter
Literally within 15 minutes saying good bye to family– concerned they might have to do cell extraction.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
How accomplished?
Captain William Hocter
They suit up and going in with [missed].
Defense (Coombs)
In your entire time– only a couple of..?
Captain William Hocter
The psychiatrists– you are not always seeing this… I went over. They were in the middle– took a couple hours to talk him down.
Defense (Coombs)
What happened?
Captain William Hocter
Two guards were gruff. This made him anxious. Don’t remember specifics. Seemed minor– should not have gotten to that point.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Aware order, suicide risk?
Captain William Hocter
I remember recommendation. I said POI for 24 hours.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420 (k)] So in this evaluation– you are not the one signing?
Captain William Hocter
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Malone was?
Captain William Hocter
He was going to assume care with my deployment.
Defense (Coombs)
Why POI?
Captain William Hocter
It was tense– staff was upset– bit more cautious.
Defense (Coombs)
On 13 January 2010, participated in a meeting with Col. Oltman?
Captain William Hocter
Captain [Brian] Moore [Quantico Brig psychiatrist who became defense forensic psychiatrist]; Captain Neill; Brig staff; Col. Oltman; couple of residents from Walter Reede.
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Captain William Hocter
Col. Oltman required, but fuzzy.
Defense (Coombs)
Recall the subject was Pfc. Manning?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Oltman said, ‘MAX custody and POI indefinitely’?
Captain William Hocter
Can’t speak to MAX, but POI for the foreseeable future.
Defense (Coombs)
Why not MAX?
Captain William Hocter
That is not within my purview as a psychiatrist.
Defense (Coombs)
POI for foreseeable future concern?
Captain William Hocter
Not good for him. I really didn’t like them using psychiatric standard.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Oltman say, [‘We will do whatever we want to do You make a recommendation and then I have to make a decision based upon everything else” and “Well that is what we are going to do’]?
Captain William Hocter
Don’t recall, but that sounds about right. Col. oltman was upset– considered interns a security risk. I was upset that he was yelling at me in front of the interns.
Defense (Coombs)
Ever have in your experience POI indefinitely?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Why upset about POI? Why is it not governed?
Captain William Hocter
I feel bad getting that upset– but, I think it was a situation that warranted being upset– regarding Pfc. Manning, everyone has limits.
Defense (Coombs)
Did Col. Oltman ever convey that he was receiving orders from higher up?
Captain William Hocter
Made sense– high profile case, staff very concerned– very high level.
Defense (Coombs)
Ever have base commander so involved?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(l)] 14 January 2011 after…Pt [patient] continues to not be suicidal and does not require POI. Please remove him. If he requires enhanced security for other reasons, please consider writing a
separate SOP.’?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
You said Captain Neill that you would keep an eye on behavior in log book?
Captain William Hocter
Yes, but not concerned. I think they were worried about his safety– suicide in the military– suicide in a Brig– very rough time, and they decided they were gonna run risk management in case.
Defense (Coombs)
By running risk management…?
Captain William Hocter
You only do this when necessary, because they can have unintentional consequences.
DEFENSE ENDS EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
GOVERNMENT CROSS-EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
Prosecution (Morrow)
First met Pfc. Manning 29 July 2010?
Captain William Hocter
30th.
Prosecution (Morrow)
You recommended suicide risk?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Because of history?
Captain William Hocter
Looked at same thing before and flight surgeon had carried documents as well.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Said very ‘patient’, created nooses?
Captain William Hocter
We recommended suicide to POI, graduated reduction. Suicide– sever or imminent. POI…moderate to moderate high-range– not having someone to watch him.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Spoke to Captain Richardson?
Captain William Hocter
First day– would have to review SOP.
Prosecution (Morrow)
No belts. No trash-bags?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Morrow)
Col. Malone?
Captain William Hocter
More than safe enough– MAX detainees observed every 15 minutes– didn’t feel from a psychiatric perspective… You are already [missed] 15 minutes– don’t need to.
Prosecution (Morrow)
High profile case?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Frequent talks to Col. Malone?
Captain William Hocter
I don’t recall, but that…[missed].
Prosecution (Morrow)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Morrow)
When you met with Pfc. Manning, you met with the Brig staff?
Captain William Hocter
I communicated sometimes to senior enlisted, [missed] or [missed].
Prosecution (Morrow)
Possibly [missed], sort of understanding [missed]?
Captain William Hocter
I offered how he had been doing.
Prosecution (Morrow)
You did this…frequently?
Captain William Hocter
Frequently Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, Sergeant of Watch, Brig OIC. I will always talk to NCO [Non Commissioned Officer] on duty.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Throughout fall of 2010, during recommended removal from POI?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
[Missed]…would change?
Captain William Hocter
Correct. Clerical error on my part. I never felt that was psychiatric reason to be segregated.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Next week 10 December 2010,did not segregate?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Morrow)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Morrow)
In your mind, he was continuing to improve?
Captain William Hocter
Yes– a little bit from Kuwait…not suicidal, and improved in our comfort level in dealing with him.
Prosecution (Morrow)
By 11 August 2010 suicide risk to not suicide risk?
Captain William Hocter
There is a much decreased by 6 August– would need to check.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Maybe in a week?
Captain William Hocter
Absolutely. Only lasts three days.
Prosecution (Morrow)
On 26 August…?
Captain William Hocter
Clerical error.
Prosecution (Morrow)
So, you could understand Brig might misunderstand [what] you were saying– Pfc. Manning?
Captain William Hocter
Yes, possible. Without reference to clinical notes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Want to jump to 10 December.
Captain William Hocter
I believe Mr. Coombs showed you the clinical notes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
[Gives exhibit to witness.] ‘Not currently suicidal…[missed]’?
Captain William Hocter
I was worried [him] finding out he was dead would make him [missed]– FOX reported [missed]. On email I was worried found out he was dead, would stress him. On that day Quantico did not have forms, one of the problems of no computers.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Normally you fill out after?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Morrow)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Morrow)
There was not a lot of information. Would you agree under pretty good deal of stress based on charges?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Giving nothing else on form– that a great deal of stress.
Captain William Hocter
I did speak with staff. I have to say this is not the first correctional facility I worked– they knew I was communicating.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Working at Brig as collateral duty, recommendation not followed? Well, if Pfc. Manning notes, only this form?
Captain William Hocter
this form is not as you say, whole story.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Suicide rampant in military?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. This was an enormous different degree of concern.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Marines anxious, committing suicide?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
And, they were professional?
Captain William Hocter
I never heard them say a bad thing about him.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Something you said to me on phone, ‘They kept him safe’?
Captain William Hocter
They kept him safe.
Prosecution (Morrow)
18 January incident?
Captain William Hocter
Over there and prevent cell extraction.
Prosecution (Morrow)
He was very anxious?
Captain William Hocter
Angry and anxious.
Prosecution (Morrow)
He has anxiety disorder?
Captain William Hocter
He has anxiety.
Prosecution (Morrow)
They were griff?
Captain William Hocter
They were angry.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Angry at him?
Captain William Hocter
He ended up in a different cell in the Brig– verbal exchange between Pfc. Manning and the Brig OIC– but they were angry. People get angry in the military.
Prosecution (Morrow)
With regards to anxiety– was circular?
Captain William Hocter
Anxiety fed off each other– it was a bad cycle.
Prosecution (Morrow)
It was a vicious cycle? Your experience as a psychiatrist, you would agree patient not always telling the truth?
Captain William Hocter
True.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Tell you one thing, and…?
Captain William Hocter
true. Frequently.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Never take anxiety at face value? Was not observing 24 hours a day?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Judge from DC area, you have lots of patients?
Captain William Hocter
Prosecution (Morrow)
In January time frame you were preparing to deploy?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. I had only one day before I had to leave.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Mr. Coombs asked you about your recommendation that Pfc. Manning exercise 2 December 2010?
Captain William Hocter
Could be.
Prosecution (Morrow)
I can retrieve document.
Captain William Hocter
I will take your word for it.
Prosecution (Morrow)
He gave you his recommendation? So, they listened to you at some point?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Would it surprise you if didn’t appear in another document?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Meeting was heated [January 13 2010 meeting]?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Safe to say, don’t [missed]?
Captain William Hocter
Don’t recall exact words.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Col. Oltman said some direction from higher up?
Captain William Hocter
Included in affidavit.
Prosecution (Morrow)
But, no indication that any– plan to punish Pfc. Manning or that this was related to Pfc. Manning or malicious intent?
Captain William Hocter
No. I did not see any evidence of maliciousness.
Prosecution (Morrow)
‘Nothing is going to happen on my watch…’
Captain William Hocter
That was just [missed].
PROSECUTION ENDS CROSS-EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
DEFENSE RE-EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Don’t recall them confusing…
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Why greater focus on Pfc. Manning than others?
Captain William Hocter
High profile– suicidal before in Kuwait.
Defense (Coombs)
You can keep high precaution…?
Captain William Hocter
Yes, we could, but [missed].
Defense (Coombs)
Basically engaging– observation over extended period– did you believe?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Understand you were busy, did you ever feel not spending time– not able to make appropriate recommendations?
Captain William Hocter
I always take time.
DEFENSE ENDS RE-EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
GOVERNMENT CROSS-EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
Prosecution (Morrow)
Toilet paper?
Captain William Hocter
Inmates in civilian facilities smear fecal matter…
Prosecution (Morrow)
possible for someone to stuff paper down their throats?
Captain William Hocter
Theoretically possible.
PROSECUTION ENDS CROSS-EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
JUDGE LIND EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
Judge Lind
[Missed] POI?
Captain William Hocter
Mental health–made by [mental health].
Judge Lind
If mental health POI–suicide risk?
Captain William Hocter
At other places in POI…[missed] secondary precaution.
Judge Lind
What is difference between suicide risk and POI?
Captain William Hocter
Suicide risk is line of sight watch– Clothing taken away. Hard cloth suit to wear. Under POI– Five minute watches– have more articles– nothing that they can use to hurt themselves.
Judge Lind
When you visited Pfc. Manning did he say he wanted to get off of POI?
Captain William Hocter
My best recollection is that he wanted to get off of POI. [Missed.]
Judge Lind
Is it your testimony, August September…?
Captain William Hocter
He wanted to get off, but he did not voice it until later.
Judge Lind
Steps you recommend?
Captain William Hocter
Don’t recall if he was talking to his attorney.
Judge Lind
Aware of Brig preparing weekly reports? Ask to see reports?
Captain William Hocter
No, I did not ask. [Missed.]
Judge Lind
What…?
Captain William Hocter
We would sit down across a table from one another– I would tell him about things in the outside world, ask about the relationship with his parents– with Brig staff– later on.
Judge Lind
What do you mean, ‘later on’?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Judge Lind
Did you have a set time?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. I’ll get there at 9:30 am– before I would start to see [patients], depending on [if] new patients. I would ask guards what they observed– moving into December and January things started to fray.
Judge Lind
Testified earlier when started [at Quantico]?
Captain William Hocter
2006 with exception of deployments in 2011…pretty much on weekly…
Judge Lind
Command changes every [few] years…since 2006?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Judge Lind
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
[Missed about a few questions.]
Judge Lind
You testified that Pfc. Manning was not allowed to talk to the guards?
Captain William Hocter
Those are my understanding of the rules. He told me he wasn’t allowed.
Judge Lind
What needs?
Captain William Hocter
Zoloft, Klonopin at night– something for urinary– think that [missed].
Judge Lind
You testified licking bars?
Captain William Hocter
Guard reported that it was during sleep walking.
Judge Lind
Dod the Brig ever tell you why [your recommendation]< not put into effect?/p>
Captain William Hocter
No.
Judge Lind
Ever ask?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Judge Lind
What did they say?
Captain William Hocter
Their decision to make.
Judge Lind
Ever aware that they were concerned about licking bars, dancing,…?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. And, they weren’t very concerned.
Judge Lind
Who is them?
Captain William Hocter
[Lists people. Missed.]
Judge Lind
You are an O-6? Way set up in SECNAV, do you have an opinion should not be that way?
Captain William Hocter
In military command structure, they should listen to us a little more.
Judge Lind
Was there a change in Brig staff for Captain Webb suicide?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Judge Lind
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
All they had to do was ask.
Judge Lind
Your role dual role?
Captain William Hocter
Generally given Brig pass– you do a report on safety issues– someone going to escape– make recommendation on management– so you could say dual role.
Judge Lind
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
Safety– anything with management that might help things. [Missed] example ‘This guy is having marital problems, can you see he gets more visits?’ I would not tell them some secret things within psychotherapy.
Judge Lind
Can see guards in riot suits [regarding cell extraction]?
Captain William Hocter
They were outside.
Judge Lind
Did they tell you why cell extraction?
Captain William Hocter
He was disobeying orders and I remember my impression was that they did not have to go to this extent.
Judge Lind
What happened?
Captain William Hocter
I am going by what I would have asked him. [Missed. Regarding anxiety and stressors] Other precipitating [missed] He was very upset and frustrated with the situation and [missed]. I don’t remember precipitating situation.
JUDGE LIND ENDS EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
DEFENSE RE- EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER/p>
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
What were you used to?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
You said much more?
Captain William Hocter
I was used to having my recommendations followed within minutes.
DEFENSE ENDS EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER DISMISSED