Transcript | US v Pfc. Manning, Article 39(a) Session, 11/28/12
- posted November 28, 2012
UPDATE POST COURT-MARTIAL
United States v. Pfc. Manning was conducted in de facto secrecy. The public was not granted contemporaneous access to court filings or rulings during her trial. In addition to reporting on her trial, I transcribed the proceedings, reconstructed the censored appellate list, and un-redacted any publicly available documentation, in order to foster public comprehension of her unprecedented trial.
As a result of a lawsuit against the military judge and the Military District of Washington brought by the Center for Constitutional Rights, as well as my own FOIA requests and research, an official court record for US v. Pfc. Manning was released seven months after her trial. That record is not complete.
The official trial docket is published HERE and the entire collection of documents is text searchable at usvmanning.org.
*During the pretrial proceedings, court-martial and sentencing of Pfc. Manning, Chelsea requested to be identified as Bradley and addressed using the male pronoun. In a letter embargoed for August 22, 2013 Chelsea proclaimed that she is female and wished to be addressed from that moment forward as Chelsea E. Manning.
UPDATE: This transcript was taken by hand at Fort Meade, Maryland on November 28, 2012. This transcript as published is not complete. I will be adding witness testimony from Captain Kevin Moore, defense forensic psychiatrist. The chronology of the original publication of Court proceedings also needs verification.
- Judge: Army Col. Denise Lind
- Prosecution: Major Ashden Fein, Captain Joe Morrow, Captain Angel Overgaard, Captain Hunter Whyte, Captain Alexander Von Elton
- Defense: Mr. David Coombs, Captain Joshua Tooman, Major Thomas Hurley
ALL RISE
Judge Lind
Please be seated. This Article 39(a) Session is called to order. Let the record reflect all parties present when the Court last recessed, are again present in Court [except]…
Prosecution (Fein)
…Staff Sergeant Hadaway (sp.) [acting as Court Reporter]…Office of Military Commissions present. [Other Court reporter absent. Missed name.]
Judge Lind
[Parties] had an RCM 802… Did not wish to have oral argument [concerning the defense proposed plea by exception and substitutions] …[Except] Specification 11 of Charge II address that?
Defense (Coombs)
Whenever convenient for the Court?
Judge Lind
How about right now?
Defense (Coombs)
Anytime with the exception of right now.
Judge Lind
I would like to do it today.
…
DEFENSE CALLS COL. ROBERT OLTMAN. SWORN IN BY THE PROSECUTION.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
CW4 Averhart and CW2 Barnes did reports [sent] to you?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Not aware reported up to Lt. Gen. Flynn?
Col. Robert Oltman
I forwarded to Col. Choike…not sure if Lt. Gen. Flynn…
Defense (Coombs)
Do you remember telling me CW4 Averhart in fact reported that Lt. Gen. Flynn got it?
Col. Robert Oltman
I was aware Col. Choike was sending to Lt. Gen. Flynn.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
Nor was I involved in this one, except for Col. Choike.
Defense (Coombs)
Never? Brig briefed by [missed]?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
What that unusual?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
I missed a few questions about a communication regarding an email from Col. Choike to Col. Oltman regarding Lt. Gen. Flynn. The email in question is found in the Article 13 supplement and reads as follows:
[20. Shortly after PFC Manning arrived at the Quantico Brig, on 9 August 2010, [Lt. Gen. George Flynn] contacted Col. Choike, and Col. Oltman and one other individual forwarded a newspaper story from the New York Times concerning PFC Manning’s background, and stated the following:
…
We have had one suicide of a high risk prisoner in the brig. We need to make sure that we have covered down on what we learned from that case. Based on the below [the New York Times story], this young man has a great deal on his plate and it would be good if you impressed upon all who come in contact with Pvt. Manning the absolute necessity of keeping a close watch on him. This includes Brig, medical, Chaplain and transport personnel. His life has completely fallen apart which makes him a strong candidate (from my perspective) to take his life.]
Defense (Coombs)
He [Lt. Gen. Flynn] was concerned that [Pfc. Manning] was a suicide risk?
Col. Robert Oltman
…not Pfc. Manning. He does draw a correlation.
Defense (Coombs)
‘His life has completely fallen apart which makes him a strong candidate (from my perspective) to take his life’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
He thought he was a suicide risk?
Col. Robert Oltman
I could draw that.
Defense (Coombs)
Did Lt. Gen. Flynn give you a directive?
Col. Robert Oltman
He was giving us guidance.
Defense (Coombs)
He also said, ‘impress upon’, did you?
Col. Robert Oltman
I didn’t. The clinic does not work for me. The chaplain does not work for me. Transport does not fall under me… [missed].
Defense (Coombs)
He is a three star general?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
What do you do if a three star general gives you a directive?
Col. Robert Oltman
The base commander…OPT operational planning team [meeting]… …all base functions…PAO [Public Affairs Office].
Defense (Coombs)
How many people?
Col. Robert Oltman
Around 15.
Defense (Coombs)
Who?
Col. Robert Oltman
Col. Choike [Quantico base commander]; Captain Neill [Navy Health Clinic commander]; CW4 Averhart Brig OIC [Office in Charge]; his Master Sergeant Papakie; probably someone from G3 base operations; probably Lt. Col. Greer or new man, the base SJA [Staff Judge Advocate]; and my XO [Executive Officer].
Defense (Coombs)
Major Evans?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes
Defense (Coombs)
Update?
Col. Robert Oltman
What do we know. Any guidance from PSL division [Law Enforcement & Corrections (PSL) Marine Corps Headquarters]– oversight for corrections– what we would receive– do.
Defense (Coombs)
How do you impress upon?
Col. Robert Oltman
This guidance.
Defense (Coombs)
How?
Col. Robert Oltman
We say, ‘Hey, how do we do this right? Let’s not forget lessons from detainee Webb.’
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
The fact that he is coming to us in suicide [risk] status…fact he was in suicide risk…[missed].
Defense (Coombs)
Retrieving appellate exhibit 419(a). Lt. Gen. Flynn receiving weekly reports, knew sent to you?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Addressed to you?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Knew forwarding to Col. Choike?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
I would say safe assumption. He was POTT [?]. Knew guidance.
Defense (Coombs)
And then his successor CW2 Barnes reports knew going up to Col. Choike? Knew going to Lt. Gen. Flynn?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Master Sergeant papakie also knew reports going to you?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Then to Col. Choike?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Then to Lt. Gen. Flynn?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Know Gunnery Sergeant Benis aslo involved in weekly reports?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
His counselor, to you?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
To Col. Choike?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
To Lt. Gen. Flynn?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
You believed that [Brig] guards knew that Lt. Gen. Flynn aware?
Col. Robert Oltman
I can’t say for certain, but there was a lot of interest.
Defense (Coombs)
Do you remember telling me the influence a three star general [has on] junior officers?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t recall saying, but it makes sense.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Regarding influence.]
Defense (Coombs)
What you said, ‘We need your unfettered opinion– not what you think you want me to say’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t recall. Was that two months ago?
Defense (Coombs)
Not that long.
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.] I said that because I wanted them to know that we’re the tactical people on the ground– eyes and ears. I wanted to know what they thought and assessment– not what they thought other people wanted them to say.
Defense (Coombs)
‘I want you to do what you think you should do’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
‘You wanted to insulate them’?
Col. Robert Oltman
That is what a commander does.
Defense (Coombs)
Do you remember telling me what you said in the staff meeting?
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Defense (Coombs)
No. I mean you gave this at a staff meeting, ‘I don’t want you to be influenced that people higher up are watching this’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
‘You are doing the right thing…don’t worry about the media, protests, etc.’?’
Col. Robert Oltman
That sounds like me.
Defense (Coombs)
Ever give guidance like this?
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Defense (Coombs)
So, first time required?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes, in that form.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes, but as CO [commanding officer] I am also CO of MP [military Police] and Fire and Rescue.
Defense (Coombs)
I was just saying with a specific detainee?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes, but I was giving the guidance I always give– ‘Say what you mean, and mean what you say.’ My point was that was not the only conversation I had with the Brig, also with the Military Police.
Defense (Coombs)
We’ll get to that. You reiterated guidance because of high level of interest in case?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Someone could be influenced…[missed]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Now with Military Police, you reiterated because of protests?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes, protests, activists…
Defense (Coombs)
Phone calls?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. Not uncommon for dispatch [to receive phone calls]…
Defense (Coombs)
You had protests, when?
Col. Robert Oltman
Day of week, time of year?
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
Protest outside gate rather small– 30 or 40– weekend– wasn’t real [missed word] October and November time frame. Other one after– larger– same location– on weekend…
Defense (Coombs)
January?
Col. Robert Oltman
Could be.
Defense (Coombs)
So after reiterating guidance, staff said, ‘Got it.’ Do their job?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
You indicated that Lt. Gen. Flynn never said [missed] on specific custody status or handeling?
Col. Robert Oltman
That’s correct.
Defense (Coombs)
Did he ever say, ‘Should be downgraded’?
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Defense (Coombs)
[This line of questions is about Col. Oltman’s XO [Executive Officer] Ebits(sp.)] [Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
…initial guidance from Col.Choike.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 419(b)] Recognize?
Col. Robert Oltman
I do.
Defense (Coombs)
Second page– email– you to Col. Choike?
Col. Robert Oltman
And, I believe Chief of Staff for Col. Choike.
Defense (Coombs)
You ‘just got off the phone’ and what did [XO] Ebits (sp.) tell you?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t recall.
Defense (Coombs)
Don’t recall XO?
Col. Robert Oltman
I recall, ‘any change in status must be approved by XO’.
Defense (Coombs)
Any details?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t recall.
Defense (Coombs)
Because it’s been so long?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
[Coombs reads from email] ‘…I concurred with all’? Correct?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
So, if CW4 Averhart or CW2 Barnes made a change, they would check with you?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes, except immediate change.
Defense (Coombs)
Like life or death?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Walk me through.
Col. Robert Oltman
They would do a [C&A] board…I would get report– weekly staff meeting– constant interface if I had questions I would give a call. Once I was comfortable that I had a good understanding, then we were good.
Defense (Coombs)
What does ‘we were good’ mean?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
As Security Battalion Commander did you have the authority to tell Brig what to do?
Col. Robert Oltman
Authority. I am the commanding officer– except anything outside regulations.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
Theoretically, yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Because you would be working for me [Gives example. I missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
That’s not how I operated.
Defense (Coombs)
Not what I am asking. You had the authority?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
So, you were their reporting officer–CW4 Averhart and CW2 Barnes?
Col. Robert Oltman
I was their reporting senior.
Defense (Coombs)
So, ‘Boss’ here is Col. Choike. You said ‘Boss’ Is that Col. Choike, ‘I see emails!’?
Col. Robert Oltman
I believe I am talking about Col. Choike– anybody immediately over me– I could use that term for Lt. Gen. Flynn [missed].
[Coombs is referring to this 10 March 2011 email:
[
Gents
Just got off phone with [XO Ebits (sp.)]. She has informed me that any changes in Manning Status must be approved by [XO Ebits (sp.)]. I think there is an assumption being made that [CW2 Barnes] is acting alone and unafraid in her decision process with regard to status and or handling instruction changes with regard to Manning. That is not the case. She and I discuss, same as I did with [CW4 Averhart], every decision and every change and to date I have concurred with all. Also every change has been discussed with the Boss [Col. Choike] Not sure how much more involved we can be. Understand where guidance is coming from and we will do as directed. However I respectfully make the following requests 1) We adhere to the chain of command. XXXXXXXXXX will conact [sic] me and I will contact XXXXXXXXXX. 2) Based on conditions etc we, XXXXXXXXXX will make a recommendation/request to implement the change. Should there be non concurrence and different guidance given we would like to have it in writing in order to annotate in the file. We can set up whatever paperwork is required. We are on board just want to ensure the files are properly documented.]
]
Defense (Coombs)
Want to make sure ‘every change discussed with the Boss’? Meaning ‘Boss’ Col. Choike or Lt. Gen. Flynn?
Col. Robert Oltman
I think I mean there is a context– 10 March [2011] the way we were doing business I discuss– forward report– Lt. Gen Flynn made aware– that is the context. Now phone call from XO Ebits (sp.)– my point is that we have been doing it from this time.
Defense (Coombs)
So give me context. So, goes to Col. Choike, then discussed with Lt. Gen. Flynn?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
‘Not sure why doing this’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Because it was being done this way– it was very direct.
Defense (Coombs)
At this point?
Col. Robert Oltman
If there was to be a status change, that they would have to brief up– So, Col. Choike– his response– put it back in context.
Defense (Coombs)
So, at this point you mean Col. Choike and not Lt. Gen. Flynn?
Col. Robert Oltman
That is the way I read this. I am out of the office, just from ‘COC'[Chain of Command] perspective– So, as I go through I am responding– ‘We have chain of command, why do we need to do it this way?’
Defense (Coombs)
You say, ‘Understand where guidance is coming from, and we will…’?
Col. Robert Oltman
I mean this is my CO [Commanding Office] and I will do as directed.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Choike– what you thought?
Col. Robert Oltman
I thought Col. Choike. Mean, ‘Got it. You are the boss. I will do as you say.’
Defense (Coombs)
‘…should there be nonconcurrence’? What did you mean?
Col. Robert Oltman
Exactly what I said– Let’s go back. ‘Do your job. Don’t worry about…’ So, if that changed– that was annotated.
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Col. Robert Oltman
We prefer it in writing– anything outside context shoulder…that document is out directive.
Defense (Coombs)
That way if you and CW2 Barnes…that Pfc. Manning…that would explain resource drain for example?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
So, let’s talk about Col. Choike.
Col. Robert Oltman
Okay.
[This line of questions is referring to this email:
[What you have listed below is on target. The instructions given to me were best
passed on personally to XXXXXXXXXX, based upon the last two lengthy meetings with the [CG – Commanding General – Lt. Gen. Flynn]. I don’t prefer this approach and would rather go through you, but your TAD trip and absence creates this situation. Much is lost in email missives.
I just got off the phone with XXXXXXXXXX and let her know about your email and the XXXXXXXXXX intent. I know how things go and what you have done in the past in terms of notifying me, I only ask/reconfirm that any decisions to change handling instructions or assignment status is briefed first, before executed.
Actions required to save life and/or protect from injury are not included in this for
obvious reasons.
You and I supporting/concurring with the XXXXXXXXXX decisions that change handling instructions or assignment status, without passing that info to XXXXXXXXXX for consideration, is no longer acceptable. We/you are not going to get anything in writing from [CG – Commanding General Lt. Gen. Flynn] if he rejects/modifies a recommendation. Memo’s for the record can be discussed more between you and I, in an effort to address your concerns about proper documentation/file keeping.
Summary – #1 – yes adhere to the chain of command, and hopefully you understand why that didn’t happen right now. #2 Yes – recommendations forwarded to me for discussion and concurrence and then recommendation forwarded to [CG – Commanding General – Lt. Gen. Flynn] before implementation. I will not blindly forward a recommendation to the XXXXXXXXXX, instead I’ll discuss it with you so you will know exactly what I forward. #3 Non-concurrence in writing – we need to discuss and determine the best way to document decision/final actions for the record. [CG – Commanding General Lt. Gen Flynn] wants to be able to determine political impact, media interest, legal ramifications, and senior leadership reactions, and can’t do so without him being in the loop upfront.
SF, [Col. Choike]
PS- When do you get back?]
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Choike says, ‘…last two lengthy…’ is he referring to Lt. Gen. Flynn?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Choike indicate why?
Col. Robert Oltman
Special handeling instructions– they had implemented change in his instructions. And he was tired– and where he was general– he had ‘enough is enough’– he was tired about hearing stuff from people…CG [Commanding General]– in his chain of command– instead of people at Quantico. [Regarding Lt. Gen. Flynn], he wanted to be able to shape information and brief his command– so that when they learned from newspapers and the early bird.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed]…no longer acceptable without passing information up to Lt. Gen. Flynn?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
So, if CW4 Averhart– CW2 Barnes makes recommendation [up to] Col. Choike [up to] Lt. Gen. Flynn ‘concur/not concur’? Correct?
Col. Robert Oltman
Not sure if his concurrence– but that he needed to be aware.
Defense (Coombs)
‘ We/you are not going to get anything in writing from [CG – Commanding General Lt. Gen. Flynn] if he rejects/modifies a recommendation’? So you were being informed that you were not going to get it in writing?
Col. Robert Oltman
…to implement that current change.
Defense (Coombs)
So, if it gets up to Lt. Gen. Flynn– he modifies…new change?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And, that would be Col. Choike and you follow?
Col. Robert Oltman
I believe that would require another meeting to take place. There would be a discussion before changes take place.
Defense (Coombs)
So, if Lt. Gen. Flynn said, “No,’ and Col. Choike concurs, and Lt. Gen. Flynn…
Col. Robert Oltman
…make sure he [missed] and I would execute guidance.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.] So, if he concurs, nothing has to change?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
If he concurs with change, he doesn’t need to put in writing– ‘by him saying he does not concur’– he is concurring?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Okay. Let’s talk about one little section. [Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
Able to draw my own conclusion. Col. Choike– [ensure that] he was receiving information coming from Brig and not chain of command.
Defense (Coombs)
Know his concern from political impact?
Col. Robert Oltman
Just implications if command had interest– concerned…
Defense (Coombs)
Regarding Captain Hocter, forensic psychiatrist?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
he did not have strongest with me because he made individual not risk to self or others and we…accordingly…and he [Captain Webb] committed suicide…not trust– I looked hard at Captain Hocter’s recommendations.
Defense (Coombs)
Regarding detainee who committed suicide…
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
…’lost confidence’?
Col. Robert Oltman
I did not have utmost confidence in Captain Hocter.
Defense (Coombs)
Sit down with Captain Neill and Col. Choike– Captain Neill was Captain Hocter’s command?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. Context was Captain Neill says Captain Hocter making recommendations that were being ignored. ‘We are erring on the side of caution.’ She was unaware of [the incident of Captain Webb’s suicide].
Defense (Coombs)
‘We are going to err on the side of…his muscle memory…’?
Col. Robert Oltman
I was going to be very cautious with guidance he gave.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Malone? Didn’t trust [Col. Malone]?]
Col. Robert Oltman
Never said that I didn’t trust.
Defense (Coombs)
‘Underwear’ incident? [Missed.] Recall?
Col. Robert Oltman
No…help jog memory.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 418(c)] Col. Choike [regarding Col. Malone] ‘not immediately available to Brig’?
Col. Robert Oltman
I’m still reading.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Malone immediately available?
Col. Robert Oltman
He was frustrated he doesn’t reside at base– work in Brig– to follow protocol.
Defense (Coombs)
If they had–
Col. Robert Oltman
–I don’t even know where Captain Hocter was in the process. He wasn’t on email.
Defense (Coombs)
If you had trusted opinion more, would you have taken Pfc. Manning off of POI?
Col. Robert Oltman
The recommendation is one data point– I am not sure we were ever able to communicate to him, and the information that he provided.
Defense (Coombs)
If you trusted him would it have carried more weight?
Col. Robert Oltman
But even credible recommendation– it would have not changed outcome– one data point.
Defense (Coombs)
So, if you had another doctor– you indicated it’s one data point…would not change?
Col. Robert Oltman
Based on behavior, etc. No.
Defense (Coombs)
So, didn’t trust Captain Hocter– Col. Malone not responsive more change…?
Col. Robert Oltman
I relied on all data points.
Defense (Coombs)
I know, but even with stronger recommendation– would not have changed?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. But, I don’t run the process. I did not make that decision. It was made by the C&A board.
Defense (Coombs)
I understand the C&A board…but [missed, explains] briefing up to Lt. Gen. Flynn?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
You had referenced a meeting, you had in January [2011]– discuss Pfc. Manning, Captain Hocter present, [Captain Brian Moore, defense Forensic Psychiatrist?]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
SJA [Staff Judge Advocate]; CW2 Barnes; CW4 Averhart; and Brig staff?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. Also, medical interns giving care to detainees.
[This line of questioning refers to the 13 January high level meeting at Quantico.]
Defense (Coombs)
And Captain Hocter explains detained…’Pfc. Manning with maintain…’? [According to my notes I believe that Coombs is quoting Captain Hocter quoting himself at this meeting.]
Col. Robert Oltman
‘He will face allegations against him…and if keeping this in this status (enables that) that is what we are going to do.’
Defense (Coombs)
[You said], ‘Nothing is going to change– he won’t be able to hurt himself…’
Col. Robert Oltman
I don’t remember exactly . Sounds stronger than I would say. …we would do…[missed].
Defense (Coombs)
‘Nothing is going to change…’ [repeats quote] What is stronger?
Col. Robert Oltman
Not sure I know where you are going with that.
Defense (Coombs)
A witness is going to testify, and I want to give you an opportunity to comment.
Col. Robert Oltman
That is probably pretty close.
Defense (Coombs)
Conversation got heated between you and Captain Hocter?
Col. Robert Oltman
I would say professional disagreement.
Defense (Coombs)
Recall him saying, ‘Call it something else’? [NB full quote is ‘You know Sir I am concerned because if you are going to do that maybe you want to call it something else because it is not based upon anything from behavioral health” and “Well then don’t say it is based upon mental health You can say it is Maximum Custody and just don’t put that we [behavioral health] are somehow involved in this’]
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t recall.
Defense (Coombs)
Something you would have said?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed but affirmative.]
Defense (Coombs)
Would base on him, because didn’t trust…?
Col. Robert Oltman
No. It was one data point. Captain Neill, Col. Choike, Brig staff, DSC [?], everyone.
Defense (Coombs)
Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, Master Sergeant Papakie, and Gunnery Sergeant Fuller?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t know who was there at this time.
Defense (Coombs)
DBS [Duty Brig Supervisor]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Changes on a daily basis. They are aware of handeling instructions– nothing from doctor to tell them to do something different.
Defense (Coombs)
Heard this said? CW4 Averhart? [Referring to his disagreement and statement to Captain Hocter that ‘We will do whatever we want to do You make a recommendation and then I have to make a decision based upon everything else” and “Well that is what we are going to do.’]
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
CW2 Barnes?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Etc.?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. I have a relationship– they knew Navy Captain and me– professional discussion– he is my peer [referring to their corresponding ranks in different branches of Armed Services.]
Defense (Coombs)
Let’s talk…
Col. Robert Oltman
Board would meet– talk to Pfc. Manning if he desired. That process was altered. Presented to Brig OIC [Officer in Charge]. She would either concur or not concur– send report forward.
Defense (Coombs)
After they discussed custody…that would come up to you and you concurred?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct
Defense (Coombs)
And, you always concurred?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct/
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
‘Erred on side of caution’?
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Defense (Coombs)
You said you were never 100 per cent sure– gonna ‘err on side of caution’?
Col. Robert Oltman
If we are in a quandary and this recommendation is made, ‘We are gonna err on side of caution.’
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Let’s talk about SBC [?] and having discussion with Brig OIC. Why did you believe Pfc. Manning was on MAX?
Col. Robert Oltman
I believe because of all the factors the C&A board looked at.
Defense (Coombs)
Why did you believe MAX?
Col. Robert Oltman
I can’t say that I ever went through process if he should be on MAX or not.
Defense (Coombs)
Why in your mind do you believe was appropriate MAX?
Col. Robert Oltman
Because in receiving weekly reports– because there was not a development in a relationship of trust.
Defense (Coombs)
So, I am going to discuss ‘non development of trust’? What else?
Col. Robert Oltman
The way he was acting–broken down during recreation call– visibly upset.
Defense (Coombs)
January 18, 2011?
Col. Robert Oltman
Sounds correct. Way he interacted when given opportunity with counselor. Would not engage in conversation. Where he came from. I was not comfortable. Hadn’t developed relationship.
Defense (Coombs)
‘Non development of trust with counselor’? What do you recall?
Col. Robert Oltman
With stuff– meal etc. would not engage– only talk when spoken to– people being able to read and understand– would not give opinion.
Defense (Coombs)
This in notes…’he was quiet, courteous, and respectful’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
‘Never received adverse evaluations’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
‘Average work…’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, ‘quite but always polite’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
So, going from September time frame from Captain Hocter month after month until December– what were you seeing in reports?
Col. Robert Oltman
I saw someone going through the motions.
Defense (Coombs)
Possible, he is just quiet?
Col. Robert Oltman
Could be.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
…or his counselor. In total context– how we got [him– when he came his initial interview, ‘always planning…’ that influences– always watching, very intelligence from reports [of] counselor. I see someone going through the motions.
Defense (Coombs)
After arrival?
Col. Robert Oltman
He was on suicide risk where he was.
Defense (Coombs)
When he came to you?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Captain Hocter confirmed was suicide risk?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
believed could improve?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
What were you seeing that Captain Hocter [wasn’t]…?
Col. Robert Oltman
I did not know how Pfc. Manning was interacting with Captain Hocter.
Defense (Coombs)
Anything else?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
January 18, 2010. recall what happened?
Col. Robert Oltman
CW4 Averhart…that had been incident with Pfc. Manning– taking him to rec call– fallen backwards– fainted when removing restraints. He pulled away went to equipment, started crying. They called in DBS [Duty Brig Supervisor], Staff NCOIC [Non Commissioned Officer in Charge]– called in– got Pfc. Manning to calm down.
Defense (Coombs)
[Are you aware] reported [guards] were rough with him?
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Second guard relieved of duty by DBS after, aware?
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Anyone tell you there was concern had anxiety attack because of guards, aware?
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Allowed to complete rec call?
Col. Robert Oltman
His request.
Defense (Coombs)
What else happened?
Col. Robert Oltman
CW4 Averhart sat down to get his perspective. Pfc. Manning got upset– started to hit head and get himself worked up.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
I know what I know from the Article 138.
Defense (Coombs)
What is that?
Col. Robert Oltman
CW4 Averhart asserted his authority.
Defense (Coombs)
Recall Pfc. Manning asking, ‘Why am I on POI…?’ ‘I’ll do anything…’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t recall those words. I do know that he wanted to be taken off based on paperwork.
Defense (Coombs)
What happens after?
Col. Robert Oltman
CW4 Averhart put him on suicide risk and called psychiatrist over.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
He recommended that he not be on suicide risk, but POI.
Defense (Coombs)
Recall only 24 hour POI?
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Chief Averhart kept him on suicide risk in spite of recommendation from Brig psychiatrist?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
He had a history of assault, start off with that– it is a categorical determination, ‘risk to self and others.’
Defense (Coombs)
During time at Quantico, Pfc. Manning try to assault guard or [other] detainees?
Col. Robert Oltman
No. He had no contact with other detainees.
Defense (Coombs)
Never attempted escape?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Except 18 January [2011] incident, when upset…no violent?
Col. Robert Oltman
No that I am aware.
Defense (Coombs)
Anytime not compliant with guards from July 29 onwards?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Agrees with Coombs]…anytime non compliant.
Defense (Coombs)
So, when you look at MAX POI, consider the seriousness of the charges?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
How so?
Col. Robert Oltman
Based on alleged [charges]. Yes, that is a factor.
Defense (Coombs)
How did you factor?
Col. Robert Oltman
He was unable to be detained where he was.
Defense (Coombs)
I mean the seriousness of the charges.
Col. Robert Oltman
I understand, but I look at whole context. He was too much of a problem…couldn’t handle him [in Kuwait]. Seriousness of the charges or suicide risk. There was no real understanding– [he] refused to discuss those things with counselor. [We didn’t understand] what Pfc. Manning was about.
Defense (Coombs)
Because of these MAX appropriate? [Missed alternate.]
Col. Robert Oltman
Both.
Defense (Coombs)
You indicated ‘too much of a problem [in Kuwait’?]
Col. Robert Oltman
That was related to us.
Defense (Coombs)
Anytime before, did you indicate [to anyone] too much of a problem?
Col. Robert Oltman
We reiterated that we did not think he should be kept [at Quantico]. 1.) Just transfered to ‘Level 1’ facility. 2.) Not in best condition…lighting needed repair– could do core function to be brought up– needed work [missed].
Defense (Coombs)
High profile?
Col. Robert Oltman
I mean it was on the news.
Defense (Coombs)
And if you messed up it would be noticed?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Made aware– Lt. Gen. Flynn– Gen. Dumford (sp), as Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps; Gen. Amos, commandant of the Marine Corps; Secretary [of Defense Robert] Gates…?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Ever briefed [missed].
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Obviously didn’t want anything bad to happen on his watch. MAX not because he was a risk, but high profile?
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Why not?
Col. Robert Oltman
Not a consideration– focus was…not where we started.
Defense (Coombs)
So, no possibility–‘err on the side of caution’?
Col. Robert Oltman
I erred because of– I didn’t want any detainee to die on my watch.
COURT IN RECESS
COURT CALLED TO ORDER
Defense (Coombs)
Recall CW5 Galaviz conducted investigation in response to Article 138?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Found violation of SECNAV?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
You said, ‘minor violations’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Violations are violations.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 419(d)].
Col. Robert Oltman
Okay.
Defense (Coombs)
See where you ask CW2 Barnes– ask minor violations?
Col. Robert Oltman
I may have– I don’t have corrections background– trying to see if a big deal or not.
Defense (Coombs)
Even CW2 Barnes agrees once doctor says [removal from suicide risk, must happen immediately]?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
‘Once the MO [Medical Officer] ventured whatever…’ he was on before…’what DBS specifically move to POI’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
Did you have a conversation with CW2 Barnes about that?
Col. Robert Oltman
I just asked on a scale of one to ten…where resided. She said, ‘it’s a violation’…[missed].
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
Not serious, no number.
Defense (Coombs)
March 2– regarding [removal of underwear] remember?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed] of additional charges– cognizant of anything that may change, ‘If I were gonna kill myself…’
Defense (Coombs)
Who briefed?
Col. Robert Oltman
CW2 Barnes
Defense (Coombs)
Did you know who Pfc. Manning…suicide…Master Sergeant Papakie?
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Did CW2 Barnes tell you he was discussing the absurdity of POI?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t recollect.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed]
Col. Robert Oltman
She said his response was ‘defiant in tone.’ Like, ‘If I wanted to kill myself…’
Defense (Coombs)
[Did you know] he was smiling [at the time he said it]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t know. Didn’t ask.
Defense (Coombs)
Joking?
Col. Robert Oltman
My question– my question given status he was in why joke…engage in no conversation…shares no emotion. Not sure why he would [missed] no comment/
Defense (Coombs)
Were you told…[Coombs explains], ‘If I wanted to harm…’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Not in that detail.
Defense (Coombs)
You weren’t told idle comment as joke?
Col. Robert Oltman
Conversation was, ‘could be nothing,’ but ‘could be something.’
Defense (Coombs)
Did you push into why with idle comment?
Col. Robert Oltman
In inspection of comment, whether she thought feasible…
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Col. Robert Oltman
Because you could strangle yourself…if he thought could be.
Defense (Coombs)
Talk to doctors? ‘?
Col. Robert Oltman
Doctors said wasn’t serious– ‘intellectualizing.’
Defense (Coombs)
Consider?
Col. Robert Oltman
I took into account, but with relationship that did or did not exist between detainee and staff…
Defense (Coombs)
‘Err on the side of caution’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 419(e)] Lt. Col. Greer?
Col. Robert Oltman
Bottom?
Defense (Coombs)
First page.
Col. Robert Oltman
Bottom is Col. Choike.
Defense (Coombs)
Above that. Lt. Col. Greer [Staff Judge Advocate] to Col. Choike…Col. Mark Kauzlarich [Marine Corps Base Quantico] Chief of Staff?
Col. Robert Oltman
‘This may become media issue, as Pfc. Manning may bring up with attorney.’
Defense (Coombs)
Lt. Col. Greer is saying this in regards to ‘[removal of] underwear’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Choike does Dr. Seuss? [‘I can wear them in a box. I can wear them with a fox. I can wear them in the day. I can wear them so I say. But I can’t wear them at night. My comments gave the staff a fright…’]
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Thought that was funny?
Col. Robert Oltman
I thought it was interesting. I was joking that in the context’ing of that, Col. Choike would put it as that.
Defense (Coombs)
Do you think it was funny Pfc. Manning was stripped?
Col. Robert Oltman
No, I did not.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Pfc. Manning ‘mumbling’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Documenting everything he would do.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Malone down to see Pfc. Manning because he was being read charges that day?
Col. Robert Oltman
Make sure…[missed].
Defense (Coombs)
[Col. Malone was] suppose to see him on March 4, 2011?
Col. Robert Oltman
Next scheduled visit, yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Two days after? [Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.] Concern– not sure how he would respond.
Defense (Coombs)
Handing witness appellate exhibit 419(c). [Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
Couldn’t get ahold of [Col. Malone]…scheduled visit.
Defense (Coombs)
Based on speaking with him, might have lead to making comment?
Col. Robert Oltman
My direct feelings– Chief of Staff– asked they were not comfortable– they could not get him [Col. Malone] when they felt they needed him– added to the frustration.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Mark Kauzlarich [Marine Corps Base Quantico] Chief of Staff not a psychiatrist was gonna be…’death penalty…’?
[Coombs is referring to this email:
Need your assistance.
Unfortunately, [Col. Choike] and I are not comfortable with the plan. I’m not a psychiatrist; however, if one of my very vulnerable patients, who has been on suicide watch before, was going to be informed of 22 new charges and one of them holds the death penalty, maybe-just-maybe I’d be standing by to assist that patient. Sorry for venting my frustration with sarcasm.]
Col. Robert Oltman
That is what it says.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Malone got on…March 4, 2011?
Col. Robert Oltman
My guess, he wasn’t a risk– don’t have his report in front of me.
Defense (Coombs)
Didn’t believe in an specific requirement [based on Pfc. Manning’s mental health and the referral or additional charges.]
Col. Robert Oltman
I believe…not sure of term. Don’t recall.
Defense (Coombs)
Retrieving appellate exhibit 419(c). Appellate exhibit 419(f). See where Col. Choike asks you, ‘leave as is…instant same’
[Coombs is referring to this 4 March 2011 email:
Mental Health visit by [Col. Maline] is complete. This initial report came from XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXX and the XXXXXXXXXX, who was just debriefed by XXXXXXXXXX this afternoon after his visit with Manning. PFC Manning is doing well, appeared in good spirits and has been taken off a medication for an anxiety disorder, the removal is in response to his improved status. His recent actions and statements are not related any mental disorder.
Initial report from XXXXXXXXXX – the XXXXXXXXXX is going to leave Manning in the same status (POI) and his handling instructions will remain the same for the immediate future; meaning he will only have his blankets from Taps to Reveille. XXXXXXXXXX and CW2 Barnes discussed at length the situation and XXXXXXXXXX will continue to review his behavior/actions and review the recommendations of the C&A Board. The C&A Board goes every Friday … so he will remain ‘as is’ for now … but, handling instructions can be changed at any time, based upon his observed ongoing behavior.
Manning’s recent comments and behavior have the entire Brig Staff concerned, and they are trying to only add minimal precautionary measures necessary, that will allow him to have some space and reduce the stress, while protecting him/keeping him safe.]
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
You said, she and I talked at length’…no time line?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
And she never did change ‘handeling instructions’ for the remained [of Pfc. Manning’s] time [at Quantico]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Caused a lot of media controversy at Quantico?
Col. Robert Oltman
Anything causing scrutiny
Defense (Coombs)
But, this in particular?
Col. Robert Oltman
Caused a lot of chatter…
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 419(g)] Second page…Lt. Col. Wright Headquarters PPO [Law Enforcement and Corrections, Plans, Policies, and Operations]? That is where Lt. Col. Wright worked?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Marine Corp subject matter expert?
Col. Robert Oltman
One, yes.
Defense (Coombs)
PSL [Law Enforcement & Corrections (PSL) page for Plans, Policies & Operations (PP&O)]…’we have concerns [about the decision] made by the Commanding Officer of the Brig…[removing underwear] but not officially placing in suicide [risk status]…we understand…but if we are doing business [right]…there is nothing we can do anything about…’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Pfc. Manning never said he would do anything [NB this question mans, as in kill himself]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. That is what she wrote in the email.
Defense (Coombs)
…Pfc. Manning never said he would commit suicide?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
Not erratic?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And, smiling when talking to Master Sergeant Papakie?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
And would not qualify for suicide risk?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. ‘SECNAV states I can remove clothing when I deem necessary…’
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
What provision does she cite?
Col. Robert Oltman
SECNAV [missed, but it is 4205.5(a) “Prisoners who have threatened suicide or have made a suicide gesture but are found fit for confinement may be placed within special quarters under continuous observation while in the category of suicide risk. CO/OIC/CPOIC may direct removal of prisoner’s clothing when deemed necessary.” CW2 Barnes later admits that she did not have authority under this regulation because Pfc. Manning was not on suicide risk.]
Defense (Coombs)
Did you ask her what authority?
Col. Robert Oltman
I did not. …trust Brig OIC…appropriate when necessary.
Defense (Coombs)
She says that she could not justify not taking any action…?
Col. Robert Oltman
After he made comment…this was enough rational to. All fits together, if that is piece taken…[Pfc. Manning] not enough rapport with others. That foundation was not there.
Defense (Coombs)
Did you pull the SEVNAV?
Col. Robert Oltman
…to go back to…
Defense (Coombs)
Do you pull SECNAV file?
Col. Robert Oltman
I don’t have it memorized.
Defense (Coombs)
Respond to email [from CW2 Barnes]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t recall.
Defense (Coombs)
Did you call [her]?
Col. Robert Oltman
If I didn’t respond, it means call.
Defense (Coombs)
You have subject matter expert giving guidance in contradiction of CW2 Barnes…?
Col. Robert Oltman
He gave a 30,000 foot level…never deal with Pfc. Manning, etc.
Defense (Coombs)
He is a proponent of the SECNAV…?
Col. Robert Oltman
I took this…[missed].
Defense (Coombs)
…get guy [sit?] down together?
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Took the word of CW2 Barnes?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Call Lt. Col. Wright?
Col. Robert Oltman
No. Took at opinion. He provided opinions on other [missed].
Defense (Coombs)
Was he wrong?
Col. Robert Oltman
I never researched whether he was wrong.
RECESS CALLED
COURT CALLED TO ORDER
Defense (Coombs)
You said Lt. Col. Wright and CW2 Barnes…last thing you said is that Lt. Col. Wright [giving] 30,000 foot level…?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
You would agree regarding SECNAV INstructions…opine…taking steps inconsistent with SECNAV?
Col. Robert Oltman
Believe what he said.
Defense (Coombs)
‘Not how we do business’?
Col. Robert Oltman
What he said, agree.
Defense (Coombs)
Multiple inquiries via media in regards– [Col. Timothy V.] Johnson, PAO [Pubic Affairs Office] comments people were going to weigh in on responses to the press? You weighed in on one?
Col. Robert Oltman
Have to see email.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 419(h)] Media inquiry…Col. Timothy V. Johnson asked Lt. Gen. Flynn and yourself to give feedback?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
You recommend, ‘Keeping first– delete second’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Hold on. Have to read. Correct. I [believed?], ‘detainee…guided by SECNAV’ sufficient for response.
Defense (Coombs)
Retrieving 419(i). Opining on email, not out of the ordinary?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
5 March [2011]– You, Col. Mark Kauzlarich [Marine Corps Base Quantico Chief of Staff]…AP [Associated Press] [piece?], ‘[1st Lt. Scott] Villiard [Quantico spokesperson] sounded knowledgable and objective’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
You were concurring with his response with the Blackberry article?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t have the article in front of me. ‘[1st Lt. Scott] Villiard [Quantico spokesperson] sounded knowledgable and objective’
Defense (Coombs)
What do you mean, ‘I am biased’?
Col. Robert Oltman
I said I was biased. I have to go to the article.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit (?)] Let’s talk about some of the things that made this case different. Pfc. Manning mail coming to the Brig?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. Report…larger…how much mail– How much.
Defense (Coombs)
Not normal to receive mail []?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
Protests disruptive to general operations at Quantico?
Col. Robert Oltman
It’s hard for protests on the center of the base or– not disruptive.
Defense (Coombs)
How?
Col. Robert Oltman
Took focus away from normal operations. Traffic at the gate…I believe front gate…traffic re-routed…disruptive.
Defense (Coombs)
Aware Brig receiving phone calls?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. Not everyone– no secret. IG [Inspector General] getting phone calls– phone calls from everywhere.
Defense (Coombs)
Whether or not [missed], some phone calls threatening to Quantico Brig?
Col. Robert Oltman
One instance– in regards to CW2 Barnes– information about where her family lived– only one I recollect. All those recorded and forwarded to appropriate agency.
Defense (Coombs)
Steps required?
Col. Robert Oltman
Not to my recollection.
Defense (Coombs)
Prominent figures would come to Brig or did come– Michael Moore, Daniel Ellsberg?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t remember those names, but took several folks through the Brig.
Defense (Coombs)
What do you recall about Michael Moore?
Col. Robert Oltman
He was going to film something– discussions with Public Affairs Office. We were not going [missed] anything like that with the Brig.
Defense (Coombs)
What security concerns?
Col. Robert Oltman
Quantico is an open base…as long as you have a value 10– 7 approved credentials [NB so, this means you can have different types of ID, each carries a certain valuation], you are not denied access. Normal security checks– so to my knowledge, those things still continue to take place– no different coming to Brig and getting on base. If something happens, we knew when leaving and when coming back.
Defense (Coombs)
Army CID [Criminal Investigation Command] place audio recording in visitation booths to record any visit with Pfc. manning not with counsel?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. Reason is standard. Our Brig not equipped in that manner…
[NB The following are tenants at Marine Corp Base Quantico: Defense Intelligence Agency; Drug Enforcement Administration training academy, FBI Academy, the principal research and training facility of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the principal training facility for the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) are also located on the base; FBI Hostage Rescue Team (HRT); FBI Laboratory; Naval Criminal Investigative Service Headquarters, Army CID Headquarters, AFOSI Headquarters.]
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed question regarding Department of Defense.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Lots of press about Pfc. Manning confinement?
Col. Robert Oltman
If you say so.
Defense (Coombs)
Aware [PBS] Frontline wanted to interview CW2 Barnes?
Col. Robert Oltman
Traffic kind of hard– abundance to sift through– can’t recollect…even at this time. I have a daily newspaper– I didn’t go out seeking information.
Defense (Coombs)
Remember [missed] Col. Choike– piece that [PBS] Frontline did on Pfc. manning’s father?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t recall.
Defense (Coombs)
Visits by high level IG [Inspector Generals] Army, Navy, CW5 Galaviz?
Col. Robert Oltman
Not sure I would put [CW5 Galaviz] in same category as IG.
Defense (Coombs)
Major General Arri (sp.)?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. Mr. Hogue (sp.) counsel to the commandant. I believe Army general…apologize for not remembering names.
Defense (Coombs)
Coming down to see Pfc. Manning?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Amnesty International?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t recall. Seems logical.
Defense (Coombs)
Recall Lt. Gen. Flynn, Col. Choike, and Captain Neill pushing for 24/7 mental health?
Col. Robert Oltman
I do.
Defense (Coombs)
This is a case that placed a lot of drain on resources?
Col. Robert Oltman
We tried to accomodate– there are transparent [missed], except for marches and protests.
Defense (Coombs)
Having Pfc. manning at Brig a drain on resources?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Everyone knew not an ordinary case?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
Some visits– remember [Mr. Greg] Strobel, [retired USMC warrant officer, now a civilian operations officer,] Army Corrections Command– January 2012 [Coombs probably mean 2011]?
Col. Robert Oltman
I don’t. [Next statement missed.] …’independent assessment’
Defense (Coombs)
‘Given recent email…’ you no longer felt [Mr. Greg] Strobel, [retired USMC warrant officer, now a civilian operations officer, Army Corrections] visit required?
Col. Robert Oltman
I believe, ‘no longer required.’
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed quote of email by David Coombs.] Why didn’t you want [Mr. Greg] Strobel, [retired USMC warrant officer, now a civilian operations officer, Army Corrections] to come?
Col. Robert Oltman
Already responded to– only reason bringing assessment in…
Defense (Coombs)
Only reason?
Col. Robert Oltman
If you are going to hand me something in– if you are going to hand me something to look at. Not sure I remember who Mr. Strobel is…where he fit into process…any prior experience with Brig.
Defense (Coombs)
[Hands exhibit.] …forwarded ‘Open to anyone who want to see it…but independent [missed]…difference [Pfc. Manning’s defense will] exploit in press’?
Col. Robert Oltman
I see it. Everything we did ended up in the press– then people wanted to come down.
Defense (Coombs)
Concerned individuals come to different conclusions, afraid I would exploit it?
Col. Robert Oltman
I am not convinced that would not have been exploited. …amount of information coming in.
Defense (Coombs)
See Col. Choike’s response, ‘need to stress concurrence’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Between first part OSD [Office of the Secretary of Defense] evaluation…
Defense (Coombs)
Col. [Shawn] Shumake [Director, Legal Policy at United States Department of Defense]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Col. Choike’s perspective– [I notated, DODY, but I am not sure what that is, It may have been phonetic, and could be a department of defense directives DODD?] [missed].
Defense (Coombs)
Did you know, ‘sure he would have done everything right’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Did not [missed]. I can’t speak to Col. Choike though. We already had assessment from Army IG [Inspector General] and one other satisfied with what they had seen– didn’t see reason to bring in another.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.] …your response to Col. Choike?
Col. Robert Oltman
May…[missed].
[NB These questions concern ‘armchair quarter backs not welcome’ statement by Col. Choike in an email exchange]
Defense (Coombs)
Did you think [Mr. Greg] Strobel, [retired USMC warrant officer, now a civilian operations officer, Army Corrections] was an ‘armchair quarterback’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Another person we are gonna have to guide through Brig– already assessed two times– IG [Inspector General] Army– IG Marine Corp.
Defense (Coombs)
Two assessments?
Col. Robert Oltman
previous IG Army and IG Marines Corps, based on Pfc. Manning.
Defense (Coombs)
…weren’t talking ‘blank’, just look at…no further. [Not clear from my note what this means.]
DEFENSE ENDS EXAMINATION OF COL. ROBERT OLTMAN
COURT IN RECESS
COURT CALLED TO ORDER
PROSECUTION CROSS-EXAMINATION OF COL. ROBERT OLTMAN
Prosecution (Fein)
Command structure on base?
Col. Robert Oltman
Marine Corp command around 215 [soldiers?], 100 civilians, responsible to base command– MP [Military Police], Brig, Fire and EMS [Emergency Services]. Three companies. 1.) Brig– Chief Warrant Officer; 2.) MP– Military Police Captain; 3.) [Missed.] All report to me.
Prosecution (Fein)
Who is higher headquarters?
Col. Robert Oltman
Col. Choike and base supported Marine Corps Combat Development Command (MCCDC) headed by Lt. Gen. Flynn.
Prosecution (Fein)
[Quantico has an] O-6 with an O-6 commander?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Prosecution (Fein)
Prior to arrival, typical interaction with Lt. Gen. Flynn?
Col. Robert Oltman
Copied on a few emails– come to command– knew some issues [missed]. Check on command– report to him, ‘deaths,…’.
Prosecution (Fein)
Like Captain Webb’s suicide?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Prosecution (Fein)
You said, ‘a couple of times’?
Col. Robert Oltman
July 2009 to July 2011.
Prosecution (Fein)
About one year before Pfc. Manning, under Col. Choike and Lt. Gen. Flynn?
Col. Robert Oltman
yes. That command relationship existed– drove dynamic– change a little at [missed] and [Marine Corps Combat Development Command] MCCDC operations [missed].
Prosecution (Fein)
With Pfc. Manning, how many times contacted by Lt. Gen. Flynn?
Col. Robert Oltman
A dozen time, not always direct.
Prosecution (Fein)
Aware what Col. Choike did or did not do?
Col. Robert Oltman
…keeping information open…but also to Col. Choike.
Prosecution (Fein)
Moving pieces…?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Prosecution (Fein)
Don’t know what pieces, like weekly reports?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Prosecution (Fein)
You don’t know reports were forwarded, but that ‘he was briefed’?
Col. Robert Oltman
I know I forwarded to Col. Choike.
Prosecution (Fein)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Fein)
Did you receive RFI [request for Information] from above?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Prosecution (Fein)
From Col. Choike’s command level?
Col. Robert Oltman
They all filtered through him [missed].
Prosecution (Fein)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Fein)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Fein)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Prosecution (Fein)
Direct decision making process, you never decided on classification [of Pfc. Manning]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Prosecution (Fein)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Fein)
You reviewed, not signed off or concurred after decision made [on Pfc. Manning classification]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Prosecution (Fein)
Your choice not to [missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Fein)
Any member would be given a lawful order?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Prosecution (Fein)
no one from your level up to [missed], ever made determination [as to Pfc. manning’s classification and status]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Prosecution (Fein)
When CW4 Averhart decided to place Pfc. Manning on suicide risk and remove him prior, without your concurrence?
Col. Robert Oltman
[He did not consult with me.] He made decision.
Prosecution (Fein)
First time you met CW4 Averhart?
Col. Robert Oltman
He reported a year earlier. He showed up August or September same year…I was short officer– [CW4 Averhart was his] S3, so operations officer in Battalion.
Prosecution (Fein)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Fein)
How long?
Col. Robert Oltman
Four to six months– end of January…four to five months.
Prosecution (Fein)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
When I came in there was no S3…been a while since we were inspected…one of the things I did was to make sure everyone was inspected to ensure that we were– not to find out if what we were doing is wrong, but to make sure [we had resources met]. CW4 Averhart was the actions officer.
Prosecution (Fein)
So, he did not have to go to the Brig?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Prosecution (Fein)
When did you meet CW2 Barnes?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.] She came to Okinawa.
Prosecution (Fein)
Were there any changes to his status? Remember every handeling instruction?
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Prosecution (Fein)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Prosecution (Fein)
Considering CW2 Barnes gave more privileges after December made…?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Prosecution (Fein)
You testified a hypothetical. Lt. Gen Flynn could b making decision– ‘could’, but any command officer could?
Col. Robert Oltman
yes.
Prosecution (Fein)
Did every detainee have three hot meals?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Prosecution (Fein)
Health support everyday?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Prosecution (Fein)
Mental health every week?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. [Elaborates, but I missed.]
Prosecution (Fein)
Proper exercise equipment?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Prosecution (Fein)
Resources– you still dedicated to accomplishing mission?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Prosecution (Fein)
Order not to have underwear ‘at night’ because of comment ‘commit suicide’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Prosecution (Fein)
Like saying bomb at TSA [Transportation Security Administration]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct/
Prosecution (Fein)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Regarding when Col. Choike tried to get ahold of Col. Malone] when we reached out to get him…
Prosecution (Fein)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Fein)
Other than that incident, aware of when mental health not available?
Col. Robert Oltman
…nothing, except that case…from review and reports.
Prosecution (Fein)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Fein)
Including culminating even Col. Malone went to Fort Leavenworth on plane with Pfc. Manning?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t recollect.
Prosecution (Fein)
Many tours…CW5 Galaviz, and assistant secretary of defense, and lawyer?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Fein)
Did anyone of them other than CW5 Galaviz regarding Article 138– make complaint? [Not sure if I transcribed this one accurately.]
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Prosecution (Fein)
They were privy to the details not public?
Col. Robert Oltman
They were taken in and shown how policy handled [explains door to be able…security operation. Not clear from my noted if he was saying the door to the observation booth adjacent to Pfc. Manning’s cell.]
Prosecution (Fein)
How often visit Brig?
Col. Robert Oltman
Often [Elaborates, missed.]
Prosecution (Fein)
[Did you] meet with detainees?
Col. Robert Oltman
If they were new…primary is deserters…or be out in thirty days or less [missed.] As I would walk out…why he was there…promulgate a few questions.
Prosecution (Fein)
You said, chow [down at the Brig] two times a month?
Col. Robert Oltman
Ate with Chief Warrant Officer if he or she [was] on deck– operations chief. Off-going DBS [Duty Brig Supervisor] for lack of a better term– Master Sergeant accessible, program chief, administrative chief, as far as Marines– so if someone was in chow hall…[but] would not talk with them [missed].
Prosecution (Fein)
Most senior official to interact with Brig?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct assessment.
Prosecution (Fein)
Meet with Pfc. Manning?
Col. Robert Oltman
Initial conversation like other detainees. If he was there, I would see him. Along the lines of, ‘Getting what you need?’…As time went on [missed statement].
Prosecution (Fein)
How many times?
Col. Robert Oltman
No more than a dozen times.
Prosecution (Fein)
Pfc. Manning never told you he was being mistreated?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Prosecution (Fein)
Never knew he was being mistreated from defense counsel and medical [staff] inside the Brig?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Prosecution (Fein)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
PROSECUTION ENDS CROSS EXAMINATION OF COL. ROBERT OLTMAN
DEFENSE RE-EXAMINATION OF COL. ROBERT OLTMAN
Defense (Coombs)
You indicated Lt. Gen. Flynn after uptake– uptick with Pfc. Manning?
Col. Robert Oltman
Contact with Lt. Gen. Flynn same [with Pfc. Manning] as year with prior.
Defense (Coombs)
But have email chains?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Frequent increase once Pfc. Manning arrived?
Col. Robert Oltman
Given that we have discussions, have to determine that would be normally.
Defense (Coombs)
On direct and phone you said you knew reports were getting to Lt. Gen. Flynn. you said, you ‘may not know sun is going to come up…but based on experience probably gonna come up.’
Col. Robert Oltman
[Affirmative.]
Defense (Coombs)
Government question…no reason to change [classification or status] if you agree with it…?
Col. Robert Oltman
The basis of the decision is what is presented to me.
Defense (Coombs)
[But you had authority] if what they are doing is appropriate, you don’t need to make a directive?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
You don’t joke about suicide?
Col. Robert Oltman
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
But you joked about taking his underwear off? [Referring to Col. Robert Oltman’s response to Col. Choike’s stament in an email chain ‘I can wear them in a box. I can wear them with a fox. I can wear them in the day. I can wear them so I say. But I can’t wear them at night. My comments gave the staff a fright…’]
Col. Robert Oltman
Took seriously.
Defense (Coombs)
And you ended that [exchange] with, ‘Sam I am’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Recall…again assume where what– you weren’t there, didn’t see and I came up to you…you know how the comment came up…if you were Master Sergeant Papakie…, ‘Hey, what do I need to do to get off of POI?’ You respond, ‘…underwear’– that train of conversation?
Col. Robert Oltman
I would have to be there, and you are hearing what you hear– that is where we are.
Defense (Coombs)
[Tells Col. Oltman conversations between Master Sergeant Papakie and Pfc. Manning. See defense Article 13 Motion for transcript — ‘would that alarm you’?
Col. Robert Oltman
Specifics as it relates to this situation…not mutual trist between detainee and staff regarding intent. I would err on the side of caution– track record at Brig was not spotless.
Defense (Coombs)
If detainee…everything looked at used [as basis of] harm…might cut back [on interaction with Brig staff]?
Col. Robert Oltman
I could see that…early on initial conversation no different.
Defense (Coombs)
Gunnery Sergeant Blenis said he was quite?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Col. Oltman recounts the first C&A (Classification & Assignment) board that Pfc. Manning attended.] …Where would we be if something happened to Pfc. Manning.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
If something were to happen, higher command would ask you questions?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
I was present for tours…Brig OIC– asked questions, they thank[ed] for visit. I never received anything [missed].
Defense (Coombs)
Basically an hour long tour? tour consisted of chow hall, etc.
Col. Robert Oltman
…visitor booth, [missed]…
Defense (Coombs)
One way mirror [in the observation booth]– [see] Pfc. Manning in the observation booth?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
That was extent?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Weren’t asking any questions to…show my belief to get eyes on…[The audio was cut to the press pool.]
[MISSED A FEW QUESTIONS DUE TO THE AUDIO BEING CUT TO THE PRESS POOL FOR SEVERAL MINUTES]
…
Col. Robert Oltman
…they were designed [to] report in the press…to get first hand, not in solitary confinement.
Defense (Coombs)
What does solitary confinement mean?
Col. Robert Oltman
Resembles disciplinary area…cell with steel door…segregation from rest of population– everyone in sane type of cell.
Defense (Coombs)
but, everyone wasn’t forced to eat in cell?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. Handling instructions.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed]
Col. Robert Oltman
Everyone ate with a spoon.
Defense (Coombs)
So, when they toured the cafeteria, Pfc. Manning never ate there?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed]
Defense (Coombs)
And, if you are detained [missed] eating meal with spoon in cell? What is the difference? [Missed. NB Coombs is trying to illustrating through this line of questions that the application was similar to solitary confinement, even if the the label is not, ‘solitary confinement’.]
Col. Robert Oltman
If there were an other MAX, they would consume in same way.
Defense (Coombs)
You were asked questions about ‘underwear’– facts came from defense?
Col. Robert Oltman
No. Major Fein… …CW2 Barnes told me, he had made the comment.
Defense (Coombs)
What did she tell you about stripping?
Col. Robert Oltman
…never expected he [missed]. I was not there…tell him to take appropriate action to cover himself.
Defense (Coombs)
required to cover himself?
Col. Robert Oltman
That is my understanding– 5 am Reveille.
Defense (Coombs)
Did you know he tried to cover himself, told to put it away?
Col. Robert Oltman
Did not know that.
Defense (Coombs)
If the intent wasn’t to have him strip naked…?
Col. Robert Oltman
DBS should say, ‘Cover yourself.’
Defense (Coombs)
Expect him to do that, he would have been written up?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
DEFENSE ENDS RE-EXAMINATION OF COL. ROBERT OLTMAN
JUDGE LING EXAMINATION OF Col. ROBERT OLTMAN
Judge Lind
How many inmates 2010, 2011?
Col. Robert Oltman
No more than 12–morning count six– top 10– again process, …deserters to be processed out.
Judge Lind
…other than my recollection of pretrial detainees, you have transferred to pretrial facility in 2010 or 2009?
Col. Robert Oltman
It was ‘Level 1’ before my time…I believe they would process them [pretrial detainees] as well.
Judge Lind
During your tenure– longest pretrial detainee at Quantico?
Col. Robert Oltman
Maybe, two months.
Judge Lind
Describe notice you got when Pfc. Manning [arrived]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Maybe email– Col. Choike …[going to] get Pfc. Manning– sent two or three page packet– outlined charges alleged to have committed– medical… commander. That was it. Minimal information. The big thing that we were concerned was getting him out of there in 30 days.
Judge Lind
Tell me more. Got notice that you were receiving [Pfc. Manning]?
Col. Robert Oltman
They were not seeking feasibility [ of his being detained at Quantico], but that he was [missed].
Judge Lind
Not sure…CW5 Galaviz… You never called to counsel?
Col. Robert Oltman
We called them, we made aware [NB concerns about feasibility].
Judge Lind
When you called Marines Corp Corrections what…?
Col. Robert Oltman
We tried to get more information. Call made by CW4 Averhart…through Army trying to get parameters.
Judge Lind
Successul?
Col. Robert Oltman
To some extent and not prior to arrival. He was in facility at least a week before we got information.
Judge Lind
Learned he had fashioned noose?
Col. Robert Oltman
In packet and discussed with Pfc. Manning and Gunnery Sergeant Blenis during indoctrination.
Judge Lind
You testified other detainees stayed two months or less?
Col. Robert Oltman
To be past 30 days is more or less not normal. Most people we get are not pretrial. They are deserters…processing them and getting them out the door… There are also post confinement. They stay– temporary– for Court, but stay elsewhere– less than 30 days. [He gives and example] There was an officer candidate school…he stayed past 30 days. We don’t have long term service– only support to be 30 days or less.
Judge Lind
Something in writing?
Col. Robert Oltman
No– but from a pretrial perspective.
Judge Lind
[Missed.] …longer than six months?
Col. Robert Oltman
MAX detainee more requirements moving that individual than someone not in POI. We would continually evaluate where we were. If we had two MAX we would not be taking any more detainees. I went from a structure of 79 to 44– because predicate not suppose to be there long time. [Missed.]
Judge Lind
In words of… pretrial detention do confinement…SECNAV provide for different program long term?
Col. Robert Oltman
Don’t know– just from discussions with staff. [Missed.]
Judge Lind
[Missed.]
Col. Robert Oltman
MAX and MDI [Medium In], I believe.
Judge Lind
In same place?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Judge Lind
Describe? Facility…?
Col. Robert Oltman
Kept in special quarters.
Judge Lind
Who?
Col. Robert Oltman
Anyone who comes to facility based on Pfc. Manning footprint. So there are two open squad bays…then there is special quarters areas. Horse-shoe type fashion– cells walk down…pass through and this wall facing in…duty [missed]– forst three or four… Special quarters disciplinary…door– steel door…glass portal. Disciplinary used one or two time since I was in command. Some individual report in and given instructions…so there is a process to get them to be compliant. He [Pfc. Manning] was not in special quarters of disciplinary.
Judge Lind
[Missed regarding observation booth.]
Col. Robert Oltman
For most part, detainees cannot see.
Judge Lind
Describe TV call?
Col. Robert Oltman
Mobile TV where he could see in his cell.
Judge Lind
Does not watch with others?
Col. Robert Oltman
No.
Judge Lind
Sunshine call?
Col. Robert Oltman
Outside facility, but inside wire.
Judge Lind
SECNAV [Instructions]– how much sunshine call time?
Col. Robert Oltman
Can’t speak for sure.
Judge Lind
How much did he get?
Col. Robert Oltman
20 minutes.
Judge Lind
PT program…[missed]?
Col. Robert Oltman
They are given rec [recreation] call. No prescribed program…it’s inside wire area…half a basket-ball court. [Inside] Weight lifting equipment…chaplain– we try to provide a variety with limitations we have.
Judge Lind
[is there a] policy to rec room>?
Col. Robert Oltman
Moved in restraints, brought back…
Judge Lind
C&A board– how documented?
Col. Robert Oltman
Worksheet. Detainee name, classification, his status– believe some items are tolerance [to stress]…at bottom… They sit on there and then recommend for his status.
Judge Lind
Require?
Col. Robert Oltman
Not sure of local or Department of Defense form. But, I believe my gut would tell me Department of Defense.
Judge Lind
What is CORMIS [Corrections Management Information System]?
Col. Robert Oltman
Database files kept on detainees and prisoners.
Judge Lind
Substitution for hard copy?
Col. Robert Oltman
Brig OIC– better person to ask.
Judge Lind
When you received weekly reports, you testified you concurred? When you reviewed look through to see where CW4 Averhart or CW2 Barnes had rational basis…or did you look at the fact– come to my decision?
Col. Robert Oltman
A little bit of both. I am aware SECNAV– C& A board required every 30 days. We did it every week. My focus was what doctors say, what command says, and then what Gunnery Sergeant Blenis or Staff Sergeant questions. I had mentioned building repairs…the reports read the same to me. Dialogue had to be initiated– there were some instances…any disciplinary– all [reports] contained what I was looking for was [missed.] Interacted primarily with counselor. [If] staff was seeing anything else regularly seen…detainee Manning just him [Gunnery Sergeant Blenis] and doctor. Detainee Manning and counselor [Gunnery Sergeant Blenis] reflections [missed]… dialogue of Brig OIC plus [missed] my interactions and query with staff.
Judge Lind
Any thought with what or who were saying…what staff?
Col. Robert Oltman
Had the counselor on staff…
Judge Lind
You mean mental health professional?
Col. Robert Oltman
They had staff working with Pfc. Manning day to day…instead of one day. I never totally saw what they said…but their reports [forensic psychiatrists] were one line. What Gunnery Sergeant Blenis put was more substantial. Col. Malone was more substantial, but Captain Hocter was one line.
Judge Lind
You had a meeting where he was more vocal?
Col. Robert Oltman
He was more vocal…but never peer-to-peer discussion…never– and in fairness to Captain Hocter I did not seek him out– and, in fairness I did not seek him out.
Judge Lind
Did Captain Hocter meet with CW4 Averhart or CW2 Barnes?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes. Tightened procedure…know when they were generally in and out– so we could get [missed] dialogue. There wasn’t good communication before that.
Judge Lind
When did process mature?
Col. Robert Oltman
I think when CW2 Barnes came on.
Judge Lind
In email appellate exhibit 419(b), ‘every change with Boss’?
Col. Robert Oltman
I believe I am– I am trying to present picture– adhere to chain. He went out and contacted her. [Missed.]
Judge Lind
So, Col. Choike is boss?
Col. Robert Oltman
I did. [This answer doesn’t make sense as I transcribed it, but affirmative.]
Judge Lind
You testified that you visited Pfc. Manning half a dozen times?
Col. Robert Oltman
Yes.
Judge Lind
Before underwear?
Col. Robert Oltman
I believe so. Can’t say for sure. [Missed.]
Judge Lind
Can you explain?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.] Walk down aisles. Tell me who he was, then we would have dialogue– any issues or concerns.
Judge Lind
What was his response?
Col. Robert Oltman
No issue. Never brought anything to my attention…,’Yes, sir.’ Long response not required.
Judge Lind
Did you notice anything odd or different about his…?
Col. Robert Oltman
[No answer.]
Judge Lind
See chaplain?
Col. Robert Oltman
Not aware of any chaplain ever coming to visit… …don’t recall seeing chaplain. He would reach out to unit chaplain…command [missed] officer… …don’t recollect command done on date.
Judge Lind
In command visit, any issues brought to your attention?
Col. Robert Oltman
Every report…command no concerns.
Judge Lind
Threatening phone calls? CW2 Barnes…any other?
Col. Robert Oltman
Not aware…as I stated calls would not only come to Brig but IG [Inspector General] office… That call and context sent out via email.
Judge Lind
During VIP tour, able to see Pfc. Manning where he was? VIP talk to Pfc. Manning?
Col. Robert Oltman
No, Ma’am.
JUDGE LIND ENDS EXAMINATION OF COL. ROBERT OLTMAN
DEFENSE RE-EXAMINATION OF COL. ROBERT OLTMAN
Defense (Coombs)
Aware of Brig staff informing of observation they had seen that week?
Col. Robert Oltman
I believe they stated what happened.
Defense (Coombs)
Pfc. Manning talk to Brig OIC or staff?
Col. Robert Oltman
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
20 minutes of rec call 29 July to 10 December 2010?
Col. Robert Oltman
It was in reports, so I am aware.
Defense (Coombs)
So, 29 July 2010 to 10 December 2010, no rec call?
Col. Robert Oltman
That is about right.
Defense (Coombs)
No sunshine?
Col. Robert Oltman
Sunshine call tried to expand.
Defense (Coombs)
Ever aware Captain Hocter making repeated recommendations for more rec call?
Col. Robert Oltman
No. Detainee allowed to exercise by themselves– there is a governing document that guides that.
END OF DEFENSE EXAMINATION OF COL. ROBERT OLTMAN
COL. ROBERT OLTMAN IS DISMISSED
COURT IN RECESS
COURT CALLED TO ORDER
DEFENSE CALL CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER. SWORN IN MY THE PROSECUTION.
Defense (Coombs)
Tell Court..?
Captain William Hocter
Staff psychiatrist at Fort Belvoir Community Hospital…senior officer on staff.
Defense (Coombs)
How long?
Captain William Hocter
21 years.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
Yes. Naval Health Clinic at Quantico. Five years– 2006 to 2011.
Defense (Coombs)
On site mental health at Brig?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
[Treat] Pfc. Manning…?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Pfc. Manning first arrived?
Captain William Hocter
Late in afternoon or evening.
Defense (Coombs)
What was involved?
Captain William Hocter
Review computerized mental health record…talk to Captain Richardson in Iraq. Captain Balfer (sp.) flight surgeon. Always review clinical practice.
Defense (Coombs)
Before…in July?
Captain William Hocter
At time I did– first arrived.
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Captain William Hocter
Learned from Captain Richardson– metal implements, nooses… spoken about. Comments from Captain Richardson, ‘could be patient.’
Defense (Coombs)
Change opinion?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
First removed from suicide risk?
Captain William Hocter
4 of August, first removed.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(a)]?
Captain William Hocter
This is a worksheet Brig used at time to make recommendations in regards to psychiatric status.
Defense (Coombs)
You consulted with Col. Malone?
Captain William Hocter
Senior Army forensic psychiatrist at Walter Reed. I thought a good idea because of previous suicide and also help the Brig to feel more comfortable.
Defense (Coombs)
You recommended?
Captain William Hocter
Took Brig a couple of weeks to do so.
Defense (Coombs)
Is it unusual not to follow all recommendations of mental health?
Captain William Hocter
At Quantico they usually did not follow. …at other civilian facilities [he was it would be unusual].
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(b)] Recognize?
Captain William Hocter
Not directly. I wrote to Captain Neill.
Defense (Coombs)
Do you recall?
Captain William Hocter
My assessment was this had to do with security than mental health.
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Captain William Hocter
Comment regarding ‘patience’. We had also been patient too and we had observed him quite a lot. It wasn’t very good use of [missed].
Defense (Coombs)
You had, had caution up to that point?
Captain William Hocter
You wouldn’t watch someone about his being ‘patient’. So, this is longer than we would usually want. This was pretty long, but we felt safer to move him to lower status.
Defense (Coombs)
First week– every day to other day? Stepped down?
Captain William Hocter
In addition to review, psychiatric evaluation [missed]. [Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Did you take into account amount of staff observation?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. I would not only talk to the guards, but they had a log book.
Defense (Coombs)
What was in the log?
Captain William Hocter
I did from time to time– particularly early on.
Defense (Coombs)
Would you speak to guards?
Captain William Hocter
I would talk to Gunnery Sergeant– forgot his last name [NB Blenis].
Defense (Coombs)
Did you recommend afterwards come off of POI?
Captain William Hocter
August 6 to August 26 [2010], recommended he come off.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(c)] August 27, not August 26 [2010]. Why recommend Pfc. manning removal [from POI]?
Captain William Hocter
He had been observed…week or two and that seemed reasonable amount of time. We were patient.
Defense (Coombs)
Why consult with Col. Malone?
Captain William Hocter
Brig very worried, and I wanted to allay their concern.
Defense (Coombs)
What [is the] time to detain on POI?
Captain William Hocter
Actively want to harm themselves. Starting to look [missed] someone. The less you know…the more careful…
Defense (Coombs)
Why did you believe Pfc. Manning [should] not [be] in POI?
Captain William Hocter
Not persistently depressed. Not suicidal. Not being impulsive, he was…[missed].
Defense (Coombs)
Maybe he was contemplating suicide, does that mean he has to be on POI all the time?
Captain William Hocter
People go into psychiatric hospital and come out. It’s a risk assessment.
Defense (Coombs)
No reason people can’t get better?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. I was concerned with his lack of interaction with people and lack of exercise. Good people tend to be more dysphoric when when not interacting with people.
Defense (Coombs)
Was he interacting?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Lack of exercise?
Captain William Hocter
He was losing wight and he is small.
Defense (Coombs)
Ever ask Brig to allow him to exercise in his cell?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Their reaction?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Captain William Hocter
Against regulations.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Increase sunshine call recommendation?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. Part of sunshine call.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(d)] Know who Captai Neill was?
Captain William Hocter
Yes, my commanding officer.
Defense (Coombs)
Know weekly updates to Col. Choike and Col. Oltman?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
She is presenting [to them] your recommendations?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Other than voicing your opinion, ever speak to anyone?
Captain William Hocter
I would have spoken to the officer in charge.
Defense (Coombs)
CW4 Averhart?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
What did they say?
Captain William Hocter
They ‘would take under advisement.’
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
From clinical standpoint, detrimental?
Captain William Hocter
Could be.
Defense (Coombs)
How so?
Captain William Hocter
In this…[patient] became more anxious, irritable. Some [patients] can become suicidal. It did not with Pfc. Manning. Pfc. Manning personality structure tending towards moodiness. Anxious…make it more difficult [to treat].
Defense (Coombs)
MAX POI makes him more anxious?
Captain William Hocter
My purview…I felt was POI…MAX is not a psychiatric status…so, I felt I can’t comment on it.
Defense (Coombs)
The term solitary confinement– there is a Brig definition– what is the psychiatric understanding?
Captain William Hocter
Not allowed to talk to other detainees.
Defense (Coombs)
Did he talk to others?
Captain William Hocter
Not that I am aware of.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Was there ever a detainee held in POI as long as Pfc. Manning?
Captain William Hocter
One Air Force detainee– had a lot of behavior and disciplinary issues.
Defense (Coombs)
I think you were telling me about that detainee was going back and forth to Walter Reed?
Captain William Hocter
That detainee was.
Defense (Coombs)
Pfc. Manning unique treatment?
Captain William Hocter
Yes– level of concern here that was higher that I had seen.
Defense (Coombs)
How long have you worked in corrections?
Captain William Hocter
Part in my fellowship then [explains more, missed]. Guam, Great Lakes, in GTMO in 1995 during Cuban and Haitian boat [crisis?] in 2006– Pelican Bay. Fairly substantial
Defense (Coombs)
Then, of course your five years at Quantico?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Ever seen in your other experience, other detainees held at POI [like Pfc. Manning]?
Captain William Hocter
Never…[missed]. I also did GTMO in 2003…detainee– expect to see anxiety, decreased in appetite.
Defense (Coombs)
Adversarial with staff?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Less compliant?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
See this with Pfc. Manning?
Captain William Hocter
Left in January 2011– and his patience was deteriorating.
Defense (Coombs)
Did he ever…?
Captain William Hocter
He said he wished he could get off of POI. He was understated, but it was clear he would like to have a bit more freedom.
Defense (Coombs)
Side effects?
Captain William Hocter
He did better than expected being watched every five minutes– others wouldn’t handle as well.
Defense (Coombs)
Why did he handle…?
Captain William Hocter
[laughs] I would like to think it was my care. I think he decided he was going to be strong.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Ever voice to Captain Neill?
Captain William Hocter
Yes, I did.
Defense (Coombs)
How frequently?
Captain William Hocter
I spoke to her five or six times. I sent her email and any recommendation.
Defense (Coombs)
My understanding, you were making evaluations and recommendation to…?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. [Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
One in December 2010?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
On 18 January…?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. He was very upset.
Defense (Coombs)
Were you viewing recommendations as being pointers?
Captain William Hocter
I am a senior medical officer, 24 years at the time, never experienced anything like this. My recommendation had no impact.
Defense (Coombs)
Was working at Quantico Brig frustrating?
Captain William Hocter
Couple of things. One, not paying attention to recommendations– Office set up– no computers– normally enter into computer– allow us to put notes– did not have a functioning telephone. So, [missed].
Defense (Coombs)
Now, with regards to working at the Brig, come a time you wanted to be relieved?
Captain William Hocter
It pre-dated Pfc. Manning…it’s a different environment. Things didn’t get better. Took over Walter Reede and took over correct training…
Defense (Coombs)
CW4 Averhart did not trust you?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Didn’t trust your opinion? [CW4 Averhart statement in an email: ‘His evaluations are not consistent and appears to be on both sides of the water to cover his six in the case of …’] ‘To cover your own back’?
Captain William Hocter
Not [missed word].
Defense (Coombs)
Ever told not spending enough time to make adequate evaluation?
Captain William Hocter
No. I spent a lot of time.
Defense (Coombs)
Based upon time you spent, do you believe you had adequate time to make determination?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Captain William Hocter
Because I did a thorough professional evaluation.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(e)] Captain Neill says you didn’t see Pfc. Manning in 26 November 2010?
Captain William Hocter
Recall now.
Defense (Coombs)
See where you respond?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
You see how you said, when you visited?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
‘You would send alternative mental health’?
Captain William Hocter
Yes understand. We were seeing him regularly and weekly reports. My recollection was day after– had more junior crew– and our visit wasn’t reported. So, that got reported.
Defense (Coombs)
Captain Neill– these reports seen at very high level?
Captain William Hocter
That was never specific.– being that there was high level at base– nearly weekly.
Defense (Coombs)
How do you know?
Captain William Hocter
Because, we were asked to make reports.
Defense (Coombs)
How much time did you spend…?
Captain William Hocter
Sometime one hour, also how much he wanted to– in general once a week.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420 (f)] [Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
My level of confidence– his needs not that intensive.
Defense (Coombs)
How long at this point…been able to evaluate?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
That enough time to make proper evaluation?
Captain William Hocter
I would hope.
Defense (Coombs)
Did CW4 Averhart tell you that you were not spending– not enough time?
Captain William Hocter
Don’t recall.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Oltman?
Captain William Hocter
I met him once– but I don’t recall his specific words.
Defense (Coombs)
Know if Captain Neill told CW4 Averhart or Col. Oltman…didn’t trust you?
Captain William Hocter
If they felt that way, they should have got someone else to do the job.
Defense (Coombs)
Aware…didn’t trust because of previous detainee who committed suicide?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed a few questions about Captain Webb’s suicide.]
Captain William Hocter
…We are not infallible with that.
Defense (Coombs)
Did CW4 Averhart ask for second opinion with Col. Malone?
Captain William Hocter
Don’t know.
Defense (Coombs)
If you had know Col. Oltman and CW4 Averhart did not trust you…?
Captain William Hocter
I would have offered to resign. He was being treated differently.
Defense (Coombs)
Did you see how if they didn’t trust you, that would be unfair to Pfc. Manning?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. That is why I got a second opinion.
Defense (Coombs)
Learn about…licking the bars guard?
Captain William Hocter
Either from guard or behavior log.
Defense (Coombs)
Not determination from behavior…?
Captain William Hocter
No, people do all sorts of things while sleepwalking.
Defense (Coombs)
…he was dancing in cell?
Captain William Hocter
Normal. Not unusual.
Defense (Coombs)
Heard…peek a boo?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. Doesn’t concern me… He had his own personality. He was a free spirit.
Defense (Coombs)
Ever tried to escape?
Captain William Hocter
Never heard that.
Defense (Coombs)
Assault guards?
Captain William Hocter
Never heard that.
Defense (Coombs)
Disruptive?
Captain William Hocter
No. Pretty well behaved.
Defense (Coombs)
Did you think toilet paper should be taken away from a mental health perspective?
Captain William Hocter
Maybe.
Defense (Coombs)
Degrading?
Captain William Hocter
Something healthy adults have to do.
Defense (Coombs)
Hand soap taken away?
Captain William Hocter
not dangerous– and he wasn’t dangerous to himself. Maybe for that first week– bit after that…
Defense (Coombs)
Do you believe needed his clothes taken away at night?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Suicide blanket?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Suicide mattress?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Prescription glasses [removed]?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Checked on every five minutes?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
That they were not…?
Captain William Hocter
After you have done rush assessment– more liberty if they are not dangerous.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed date], back on POI after you recommended he be taken off?
Captain William Hocter
That is correct.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(g)] Prevention of injury assignment…?
Captain William Hocter
Not suicidal. Under a lot of stress.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
He was doing yoga and they he was trying to hurt himself, and it upset him.
Defense (Coombs)
Recall in that time period you recommended…?
Captain William Hocter
I wasn’t able to put my noted into a computer.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(f)] Does that refresh your memory?
Captain William Hocter
This was a different incident than the yoga– there had been a report on FOX News that he had died, and I was worried…[missed].
Defense (Coombs)
Recommended?
Captain William Hocter
Remove his TV so he would not see that.
Defense (Coombs)
Removal of TV…?
Captain William Hocter
He was upset. [When he found out about the news report] he laughed about it and I recommended removal from POI.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
He was upset that he wasn’t getting many visitors– three days late [10th].
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
Because what I perceived would make it…upset– he appeared to be doing better.
Defense (Coombs)
You recommendation based upon slightly depressed and FOX?
Captain William Hocter
I was being cautious– impulsivity and did not know how he would react.
Defense (Coombs)
Once you saw how he reacted– more comfortable and Brig followed your recommendation [for removal from POI]?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
18 January 2011, you were preparing to deploy?
Captain William Hocter
Last day at clinic…go to Afghanistan.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 421(?)] Know Captain Ramondo (sp.)?
Captain William Hocter
Our XO [Executive Officer].
Defense (Coombs)
Why update Captain Neill on the situation?
Captain William Hocter
Literally within 15 minutes saying good bye to family– concerned they might have to do cell extraction.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
How accomplished?
Captain William Hocter
They suit up and going in with [missed].
Defense (Coombs)
In your entire time– only a couple of..?
Captain William Hocter
The psychiatrists– you are not always seeing this… I went over. They were in the middle– took a couple hours to talk him down.
Defense (Coombs)
What happened?
Captain William Hocter
Two guards were gruff. This made him anxious. Don’t remember specifics. Seemed minor– should not have gotten to that point.
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Aware order, suicide risk?
Captain William Hocter
I remember recommendation. I said POI for 24 hours.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420 (k)] So in this evaluation– you are not the one signing?
Captain William Hocter
Correct.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Malone was?
Captain William Hocter
He was going to assume care with my deployment.
Defense (Coombs)
Why POI?
Captain William Hocter
It was tense– staff was upset– bit more cautious.
Defense (Coombs)
On 13 January 2010, participated in a meeting with Col. Oltman?
Captain William Hocter
Captain [Brian] Moore [Quantico Brig psychiatrist who became defense forensic psychiatrist]; Captain Neill; Brig staff; Col. Oltman; couple of residents from Walter Reede.
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Why?
Captain William Hocter
Col. Oltman required, but fuzzy.
Defense (Coombs)
Recall the subject was Pfc. Manning?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Oltman said, ‘MAX custody and POI indefinitely’?
Captain William Hocter
Can’t speak to MAX, but POI for the foreseeable future.
Defense (Coombs)
Why not MAX?
Captain William Hocter
That is not within my purview as a psychiatrist.
Defense (Coombs)
POI for foreseeable future concern?
Captain William Hocter
Not good for him. I really didn’t like them using psychiatric standard.
Defense (Coombs)
Col. Oltman say, [‘We will do whatever we want to do You make a recommendation and then I have to make a decision based upon everything else” and “Well that is what we are going to do’]?
Captain William Hocter
Don’t recall, but that sounds about right. Col. oltman was upset– considered interns a security risk. I was upset that he was yelling at me in front of the interns.
Defense (Coombs)
Ever have in your experience POI indefinitely?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
Why upset about POI? Why is it not governed?
Captain William Hocter
I feel bad getting that upset– but, I think it was a situation that warranted being upset– regarding Pfc. Manning, everyone has limits.
Defense (Coombs)
Did Col. Oltman ever convey that he was receiving orders from higher up?
Captain William Hocter
Made sense– high profile case, staff very concerned– very high level.
Defense (Coombs)
Ever have base commander so involved?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Defense (Coombs)
[Appellate exhibit 420(l)] 14 January 2011 after…Pt [patient] continues to not be suicidal and does not require POI. Please remove him. If he requires enhanced security for other reasons, please consider writing a
separate SOP.’?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Defense (Coombs)
You said Captain Neill that you would keep an eye on behavior in log book?
Captain William Hocter
Yes, but not concerned. I think they were worried about his safety– suicide in the military– suicide in a Brig– very rough time, and they decided they were gonna run risk management in case.
Defense (Coombs)
By running risk management…?
Captain William Hocter
You only do this when necessary, because they can have unintentional consequences.
DEFENSE ENDS EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
GOVERNMENT CROSS-EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
Prosecution (Morrow)
First met Pfc. Manning 29 July 2010?
Captain William Hocter
30th.
Prosecution (Morrow)
You recommended suicide risk?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Because of history?
Captain William Hocter
Looked at same thing before and flight surgeon had carried documents as well.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Said very ‘patient’, created nooses?
Captain William Hocter
We recommended suicide to POI, graduated reduction. Suicide– sever or imminent. POI…moderate to moderate high-range– not having someone to watch him.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Spoke to Captain Richardson?
Captain William Hocter
First day– would have to review SOP.
Prosecution (Morrow)
No belts. No trash-bags?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Morrow)
Col. Malone?
Captain William Hocter
More than safe enough– MAX detainees observed every 15 minutes– didn’t feel from a psychiatric perspective… You are already [missed] 15 minutes– don’t need to.
Prosecution (Morrow)
High profile case?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Frequent talks to Col. Malone?
Captain William Hocter
I don’t recall, but that…[missed].
Prosecution (Morrow)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Morrow)
When you met with Pfc. Manning, you met with the Brig staff?
Captain William Hocter
I communicated sometimes to senior enlisted, [missed] or [missed].
Prosecution (Morrow)
Possibly [missed], sort of understanding [missed]?
Captain William Hocter
I offered how he had been doing.
Prosecution (Morrow)
You did this…frequently?
Captain William Hocter
Frequently Gunnery Sergeant Blenis, Sergeant of Watch, Brig OIC. I will always talk to NCO [Non Commissioned Officer] on duty.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Throughout fall of 2010, during recommended removal from POI?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
[Missed]…would change?
Captain William Hocter
Correct. Clerical error on my part. I never felt that was psychiatric reason to be segregated.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Next week 10 December 2010,did not segregate?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Morrow)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Morrow)
In your mind, he was continuing to improve?
Captain William Hocter
Yes– a little bit from Kuwait…not suicidal, and improved in our comfort level in dealing with him.
Prosecution (Morrow)
By 11 August 2010 suicide risk to not suicide risk?
Captain William Hocter
There is a much decreased by 6 August– would need to check.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Maybe in a week?
Captain William Hocter
Absolutely. Only lasts three days.
Prosecution (Morrow)
On 26 August…?
Captain William Hocter
Clerical error.
Prosecution (Morrow)
So, you could understand Brig might misunderstand [what] you were saying– Pfc. Manning?
Captain William Hocter
Yes, possible. Without reference to clinical notes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Want to jump to 10 December.
Captain William Hocter
I believe Mr. Coombs showed you the clinical notes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
[Gives exhibit to witness.] ‘Not currently suicidal…[missed]’?
Captain William Hocter
I was worried [him] finding out he was dead would make him [missed]– FOX reported [missed]. On email I was worried found out he was dead, would stress him. On that day Quantico did not have forms, one of the problems of no computers.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Normally you fill out after?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Morrow)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Prosecution (Morrow)
There was not a lot of information. Would you agree under pretty good deal of stress based on charges?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Giving nothing else on form– that a great deal of stress.
Captain William Hocter
I did speak with staff. I have to say this is not the first correctional facility I worked– they knew I was communicating.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Working at Brig as collateral duty, recommendation not followed? Well, if Pfc. Manning notes, only this form?
Captain William Hocter
this form is not as you say, whole story.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Suicide rampant in military?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. This was an enormous different degree of concern.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Marines anxious, committing suicide?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
And, they were professional?
Captain William Hocter
I never heard them say a bad thing about him.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Something you said to me on phone, ‘They kept him safe’?
Captain William Hocter
They kept him safe.
Prosecution (Morrow)
18 January incident?
Captain William Hocter
Over there and prevent cell extraction.
Prosecution (Morrow)
He was very anxious?
Captain William Hocter
Angry and anxious.
Prosecution (Morrow)
He has anxiety disorder?
Captain William Hocter
He has anxiety.
Prosecution (Morrow)
They were griff?
Captain William Hocter
They were angry.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Angry at him?
Captain William Hocter
He ended up in a different cell in the Brig– verbal exchange between Pfc. Manning and the Brig OIC– but they were angry. People get angry in the military.
Prosecution (Morrow)
With regards to anxiety– was circular?
Captain William Hocter
Anxiety fed off each other– it was a bad cycle.
Prosecution (Morrow)
It was a vicious cycle? Your experience as a psychiatrist, you would agree patient not always telling the truth?
Captain William Hocter
True.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Tell you one thing, and…?
Captain William Hocter
true. Frequently.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Never take anxiety at face value? Was not observing 24 hours a day?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Judge from DC area, you have lots of patients?
Captain William Hocter
Prosecution (Morrow)
In January time frame you were preparing to deploy?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. I had only one day before I had to leave.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Mr. Coombs asked you about your recommendation that Pfc. Manning exercise 2 December 2010?
Captain William Hocter
Could be.
Prosecution (Morrow)
I can retrieve document.
Captain William Hocter
I will take your word for it.
Prosecution (Morrow)
He gave you his recommendation? So, they listened to you at some point?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Would it surprise you if didn’t appear in another document?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Meeting was heated [January 13 2010 meeting]?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Safe to say, don’t [missed]?
Captain William Hocter
Don’t recall exact words.
Prosecution (Morrow)
Col. Oltman said some direction from higher up?
Captain William Hocter
Included in affidavit.
Prosecution (Morrow)
But, no indication that any– plan to punish Pfc. Manning or that this was related to Pfc. Manning or malicious intent?
Captain William Hocter
No. I did not see any evidence of maliciousness.
Prosecution (Morrow)
‘Nothing is going to happen on my watch…’
Captain William Hocter
That was just [missed].
PROSECUTION ENDS CROSS-EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
DEFENSE RE-EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Don’t recall them confusing…
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Why greater focus on Pfc. Manning than others?
Captain William Hocter
High profile– suicidal before in Kuwait.
Defense (Coombs)
You can keep high precaution…?
Captain William Hocter
Yes, we could, but [missed].
Defense (Coombs)
Basically engaging– observation over extended period– did you believe?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
Understand you were busy, did you ever feel not spending time– not able to make appropriate recommendations?
Captain William Hocter
I always take time.
DEFENSE ENDS RE-EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
GOVERNMENT CROSS-EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
Prosecution (Morrow)
Toilet paper?
Captain William Hocter
Inmates in civilian facilities smear fecal matter…
Prosecution (Morrow)
possible for someone to stuff paper down their throats?
Captain William Hocter
Theoretically possible.
PROSECUTION ENDS CROSS-EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
JUDGE LIND EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
Judge Lind
[Missed] POI?
Captain William Hocter
Mental health–made by [mental health].
Judge Lind
If mental health POI–suicide risk?
Captain William Hocter
At other places in POI…[missed] secondary precaution.
Judge Lind
What is difference between suicide risk and POI?
Captain William Hocter
Suicide risk is line of sight watch– Clothing taken away. Hard cloth suit to wear. Under POI– Five minute watches– have more articles– nothing that they can use to hurt themselves.
Judge Lind
When you visited Pfc. Manning did he say he wanted to get off of POI?
Captain William Hocter
My best recollection is that he wanted to get off of POI. [Missed.]
Judge Lind
Is it your testimony, August September…?
Captain William Hocter
He wanted to get off, but he did not voice it until later.
Judge Lind
Steps you recommend?
Captain William Hocter
Don’t recall if he was talking to his attorney.
Judge Lind
Aware of Brig preparing weekly reports? Ask to see reports?
Captain William Hocter
No, I did not ask. [Missed.]
Judge Lind
What…?
Captain William Hocter
We would sit down across a table from one another– I would tell him about things in the outside world, ask about the relationship with his parents– with Brig staff– later on.
Judge Lind
What do you mean, ‘later on’?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Judge Lind
Did you have a set time?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. I’ll get there at 9:30 am– before I would start to see [patients], depending on [if] new patients. I would ask guards what they observed– moving into December and January things started to fray.
Judge Lind
Testified earlier when started [at Quantico]?
Captain William Hocter
2006 with exception of deployments in 2011…pretty much on weekly…
Judge Lind
Command changes every [few] years…since 2006?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Judge Lind
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
[Missed about a few questions.]
Judge Lind
You testified that Pfc. Manning was not allowed to talk to the guards?
Captain William Hocter
Those are my understanding of the rules. He told me he wasn’t allowed.
Judge Lind
What needs?
Captain William Hocter
Zoloft, Klonopin at night– something for urinary– think that [missed].
Judge Lind
You testified licking bars?
Captain William Hocter
Guard reported that it was during sleep walking.
Judge Lind
Dod the Brig ever tell you why [your recommendation]< not put into effect?/p>
Captain William Hocter
No.
Judge Lind
Ever ask?
Captain William Hocter
Yes.
Judge Lind
What did they say?
Captain William Hocter
Their decision to make.
Judge Lind
Ever aware that they were concerned about licking bars, dancing,…?
Captain William Hocter
Yes. And, they weren’t very concerned.
Judge Lind
Who is them?
Captain William Hocter
[Lists people. Missed.]
Judge Lind
You are an O-6? Way set up in SECNAV, do you have an opinion should not be that way?
Captain William Hocter
In military command structure, they should listen to us a little more.
Judge Lind
Was there a change in Brig staff for Captain Webb suicide?
Captain William Hocter
No.
Judge Lind
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
All they had to do was ask.
Judge Lind
Your role dual role?
Captain William Hocter
Generally given Brig pass– you do a report on safety issues– someone going to escape– make recommendation on management– so you could say dual role.
Judge Lind
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
Safety– anything with management that might help things. [Missed] example ‘This guy is having marital problems, can you see he gets more visits?’ I would not tell them some secret things within psychotherapy.
Judge Lind
Can see guards in riot suits [regarding cell extraction]?
Captain William Hocter
They were outside.
Judge Lind
Did they tell you why cell extraction?
Captain William Hocter
He was disobeying orders and I remember my impression was that they did not have to go to this extent.
Judge Lind
What happened?
Captain William Hocter
I am going by what I would have asked him. [Missed. Regarding anxiety and stressors] Other precipitating [missed] He was very upset and frustrated with the situation and [missed]. I don’t remember precipitating situation.
JUDGE LIND ENDS EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
DEFENSE RE- EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER/p>
Defense (Coombs)
[Missed.]
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
What were you used to?
Captain William Hocter
[Missed.]
Defense (Coombs)
You said much more?
Captain William Hocter
I was used to having my recommendations followed within minutes.
DEFENSE ENDS EXAMINATION OF CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER
CAPTAIN WILLIAM HOCTER DISMISSED
Defense (Coombs)
…Government asserts that plead act which is Specification 11 of Charge II…
[“In that Private First Class E. Manning, US Army, did, at or near Contingency Operating Station Hammer, Iraq, between on or about 1 November 2009 and on or about 8 January 2010, having unauthorized possession of information relating to the national defense, to wit : a file named “BE22 PAX. zip” containing a video named “BE22 PAX.wmv”, with reason to believe such information could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicate, deliver, transmit, or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, the said information, to a person not entitled to receive it, in violation of 18 US Code Section 793(e), such conduct being prejudicial to good order and discipline in the armed forces and being of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.“]
…is an entirely different act [accused pled to act in April]…than the accused [allegedly] communicated on proper plea… [the dates of which were] 1 November 2009 and on or about 8 January 2010.
Prosecution (Fein)
Let me explain. Act alleged we believe in November to December 2009… we have the forensic evidence [for that time frame]… So he arrived in Iraq [on 1 November 2009] and he transmitted shortly after he arrived. [The Government alleges that the accused] also transmitted the full 15-6 part of Specification 10 of Charge II.
[which is “In that Private First Class E. Manning, US Army, did, at or near Contingency Operating Station Hammer, Iraq, between on or about 11 April 2010 and on or about 27 May 2010, having unauthorized possession of information relating to the national defense, to wit: more than five classified records relating to a military operation in Farah Province, Afghanistan occurring on or about 4 May 2009, with reason to believe such information could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicate, deliver, transmit, or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, the said information, to a person not entitled to receive it, in violation of 18 U.S. Code Section 793(e), such conduct being prejudicial to good order and discipline in the armed forces and being of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.“]
Judge Lind
So let me see if I understand. So, there are two alleged communications of the video.
Prosecution (Fein)
And we can charge two separate times [We have the forensic evidence for both] We decided that is the way we went.
Their revised plea is a different act… but the allegation is that he transmitted in November. Different act, different time.
Defense (Coombs)
Under RCM 918 …doesn’t change nature of the offense…communicating…? [missed]
[“Rule 918. Findings
(a) General findings. The general findings of a court-martial state whether the accused is guilty of each offense charged. If two or more accused are tried together, separate findings as to each shall be made.
(1) As to a specification. General findings as to a specification may be: guilty; not guilty of an offense as charged, but guilty of a named lesser included offense; guilty with exceptions, with or without sub situations, not guilty of the exceptions, but guilty of the substitutions, if any; not guilty only by reason of lack of mental responsibility; or, not guilty. Exceptions and substitutions may not be used to substantially change the nature of the offense or to increase the seriousness of the offense or the maximum punishment for it.“]
Judge Lind
Two sexual assault 1 November and 1 April. [Can’t charge as separate]?
Defense (Coombs)
In [US v. Allen ] case when Government says “on or about” they don’t have to prove the date. [As in not an element]
Judge Lind
Does [US v Lee?, 4th Circuit? The Judge said Lee. Lee came up in parties oral arguments for instructions for lesser included offenses] case include include LIO [missed]?
Defense (Coombs)
No. When you look at Lee case…is he on notice, and is he prejudiced…we are on notice… [missed]
Judge Lind
If Pfc. Manning pleas to one date, is Government free to charge or prohibited by double jeopardy?
Defense (Coombs)
Defense position is only one transmission.
Judge Lind
Only in April.
Defense (Coombs)
Correct.
[Missed line]
Prosecution (Fein)
…nature and identity [what the Government has to prove]…separate offense…[prove] identity, not nature.
SEE UPDATE